Talk:François-Adrien Boieldieu

The surname

According to French wikipedia (and all the others, it seems) the name is Boïeldieu, but according to my old faithful Larousse the name is Boieldieu. This makes a difference in terms of pronunciation, and therefore transliteration into Hebrew (where the correct transliteration is being discussed). Does anyone have an idea? Aviad2001 20:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I just looked him up on the Grove Music Dictionary Online ([1]) and they also write it without the trema. I suggest to move the article. Aviad2001 20:30, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

That seems to be right. Neither the Viking Opera Guide nor the recording of La Dame blanche by Minkowski have the accent either. Incidentally, the Wikipedia article on the composer Herold claims "His name is often misspelled Hérold", without giving a source. Yet everywhere else I've seen the name, it's been "Hérold". Maybe you know something about this too. --Folantin 20:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Groves Online mysteriously gives his name as Herold [Hérold], without elaborating on it (as far as I could tell by just skimming the rather long entry), then goes on referring to him exclusively as "Herold". My Larousse simply calls him "Herold". Aviad2001 20:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved the page, per the above discussion. Since there was a non-trivial history at the target location, I swapped the histories, so that all contributor information for merged content is still available, either here or at Talk:François-Adrien Boïeldieu. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Great, now at least the last name is spelled correctly. But reputable sources disagree on whether François and Adrien are always both used or whether one can be left out except at first mention. They also disagree on which one is more commonly left out to abbreviate and whether there is a hyphen between them when both are used. The spelling without the hyphen seems to be used in most reference works (e.g. Bordas, Grout) and most reputable sites, but Grove and, e.g., Naxos and this are notable exceptions. Those of you with Larousse and other reference works could check them. http://dtriaudmuchart.free.fr/boieldieu_famille.htm also supports the spelling without a hyphen.

More importantly, that site has important info on the history of the incorrect spelling with the dieresis: On relève dans les écrits du temps, de nombreuses formes orthographiques de ce nom, notamment: Boyeldieu, Boyel-Dieu, Boil-Dieu, Boielledieu, Boylldieu. Signalons, à ce propos, que le nom de Boieldieu ne porte pas de tréma, ainsi que le prouvent les cates d'état civil et les signatures du musicien. Dès 1834, Fétis avait relevé cette erreur (Revue Musicale, 19 octobre 1834, p. 329.) En 1875, le fils de Boieldieu et Arthur Pougin ont protesté à nouveau contre cette écriture inexacte. (Voyez la lettre de Pougin adressée au Journal de Rouen, et insérée dans ce périodique le 26 février 1875.)

BTW, unfortunately the question of pronunciation is not clear even after the correct spelling has been determined. Reputable reference works even with the correct spelling disagree whether the pronunciation should be [bɔjɛlˈdjø] or [bwalˈdjø]. See also http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Boieldieu,+Fran%E7ois+Adrien (fräNswä` ädrēăN` bwäldyö`) and http://theclassicalstation.org/trivia/2.shtml (based on Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Music and Musicians) The last name is pronounced "BWAH(L)-dyuh" --Espoo 00:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the extensive answer. The Hebrew Wikipedia ended up going for a "bwalˈdjø" transliteration, which, aside from all other evidence, seems to be the most common pronunciation among musicians.
To answer one of your questions, my Nouveau Petit Larousse Illustré of 1955 gives the composer's given name as François-Adrien. Aviad2001 20:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

So does the 1957 edition. But more recent editions (I checked the 2005) have removed the hyphen. Given this, combined with all the information supplied by Espoo, above, I think the hyphen should be removed from the title.

By the way, recent Larousse editions also confirm the pronunciation (absent in the 1950's) of the last name as being in three syllables, not two, which agrees with the article's current IPA transcription (bwa.ɛld.jø) but, strangely, not the prevalent usage by radio announcers, at least in the English-speaking world. Since three of the five alternate spellings (formes orthographiques), also cited by Espoo, contain an e after the y or i, it is plausible that the pronunciation of the ‘current’ form (Boieldieu) would have remained faithful to the pronunciation of those earlier versions. But the clincher is the fact that some people, from as early as (at least) the year of his death, thought that there must be a tréma on the e. They would not have made that conclusion if the e was silent. 66.130.248.96 (talk) 13:53, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Edit

Took out a sentence about the French Revolution 'not putting a stop to musical activity' or something of the sort. Why on earth WOULD it?

76.84.130.190 (talk) 01:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

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