Talk:Francis Fahy (songwriter)

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Requested move 12 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Francis Fahy (songwriter). (non-admin closure) Colonestarrice (talk) 09:53, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

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Frank Fahy (songwriter) → Francis Fahy – A change to its current title was made by Necrothesp while a separate discussion was ongoing. However, the songwriter probably should be at Francis, rather than Frank. There are two external links on the songwriter's page:

• an archived version of the Francis Fahy society on the Kinvara website
• an Amazon link to Irish Songs and Poems

Further links, as provided by Roman Spinner in the other discussion in a search for Frank Fahy:

• Ireland's Own
• Dictionary of Irish Biography
• The Burren and Beyond
• Clare Library

They each name him as Francis, rather than Frank. While he was also known as Frank, with all headline names giving him as Francis, that should be the name of the page here. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 12:07, 12 December 2022 (UTC) (edited Iveagh Gardens (talk) 12:38, 12 December 2022 (UTC)) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:54, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. I moved the article from Francis Arthur Fahy, which is certainly not his common name. Several of the sources quoted are those that generally list full names for everyone. Both Frank and Francis seem to have been commonly used to refer to him. If it is moved, he's not the only Francis Fahy, as all those listed at Frank Fahy had that name, so it should be Francis Fahy (songwriter) or Francis A. Fahy. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:37, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
  • And that bold move was in my opinion completely within process and reasonable. Contrary to what nom seems to think, the RM now at Talk:Frank Fahy (politician) did not affect this page. Andrewa (talk) 21:20, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

    Andrewa, for the avoidance of doubt, I don't think the result of the RM at Talk:Frank Fahy (politician) affected this page, but I do think that in the process of considering all of those, the incorrect first name was, in good faith, chosen for page of the songwriter, given that he was known in the sources more as Francis than as Frank. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:04, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

    Thanks for the ping. I don't think that clarifies anything, in view of your opening rationale here saying A change to its current title was made by Necrothesp while a separate discussion was ongoing. You seem to have found that context to that bold move relevant, which is now even more puzzling to me. I don't think it will affect the result of this RM, but I fear that it may mislead others, which is why I made the comment to which you have now replied. Andrewa (talk) 19:03, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

    The context was that the move was a good faith attempt to provide better disambiguating titles for each of three pages at Frank Fahy. I believe this one was mistaken, as the songwriter is more commonly known as Francis, but that case stands irrespective of other pages that were moved. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 21:17, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed, but would support retention of Frank Fahy (songwriter) as well as alternatively supporting moves to either Francis Fahy (songwriter) or Francis A. Fahy, per Necrothesp. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:30, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  I am happy to support either of the alternatives. But I will say that it seems quite clear to me that while there is some record of this man being called Frank, he is generally known to the historical record as Francis. While Necrothesp says that Several of the sources quoted are those that generally list full names for everyone, that's true in some cases, but not others. For example, a magazine like Ireland's Own would be as likely to use a common name as a formal full name; while the DIB titles the Ceann Comhairle's page as Fahy, Francis Patrick (‘Frank’), the songwriter's page is titled as Fahy, Francis Arthur. Even the specific Google search Roman Spinner for Frank Fahy Irish songwriter shows results that mainly name him as Francis, rather than Frank (the exceptions on the first pages of results being to the Book Depository and to Irish Music Daily). — Iveagh Gardens (talk) 12:06, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

• Move to Francis Fahy (songwriter). I can accept the nom's assertion that he is often referred to as Francis, but also per Necrothesp, he's not the only one. The sources in the article don't seem to use a middle initial, so disambiguate with a parenthetical.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Support this alternative. There are several possibilities with not a lot to choose between them. This is at least as good as any. Andrewa (talk) 21:31, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Actually, some do use the middle initial. I remain neutral. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:25, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

  • A Google search for "Francis Fahy" shows a mix for with or without the initial, and some like the Dictionary of Irish Biography using his middle name in full in its article title. That said, Francis Fahy (songwriter) seems a reasonable title, all things considered, if we're not to use the former title of this page, Francis Arthur Fahy, which was also probably fine.

  Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:00, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

  Except that his full name was without a doubt not his WP:COMMONNAME! We never add middle names simply for disambiguation purposes if they were not commonly used. That's a long-standing principle on Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:10, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

  I had thought that the DIB example, which don't use middle names universally in their titles, indicated that it's not a case of using it simply for disambiguation purposes. But reading WP:MIDDLE, I can see the case in either direction, and it may be that they are using the middle name for disambiguation where they wouldn't in the case of a unique name, so I'm not hung up on Francis Arthur Fahy as the title. I do think however it should be Francis, and avoiding using the middle name for disambiguation certainly doesn't mean we should use Frank, the name he is less commonly known as in the sources. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 18:46, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

  Exactly. Andrewa (talk) 19:06, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose the implicit move of the DAB at Frank Fahy or a change of the redirect at Francis Fahy that currently points to it. Evidence of primary topic status is unconvincing. This is consistent with the decision of the previous RM now at Talk:Frank Fahy (politician). No need to revisit that decision. Andrewa (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.