Talk:Francis Neale/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Governor Sheng (talk · contribs) 21:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Early life

The chapter "Early life" talks about Nael's origins. However, as an observer who comes neither from England nor from the United States, I notice that his family is probably of Catholic descent, which is very unusual for someone who comes from England (where Anglicanism predominates). Is it possible to say something more on this topic? Are his ancestors Anglicans, who converted to Catholicism?

• I can find no sources that describe why his family was Catholic or for how many generations. However, about 10% of England is Catholic, so while a distinct minority, it's not really all that rare. Ergo Sum 15:54, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I did my own research. Nothing to say here in particular. His family was Catholic. But since the article is about Francis and not his family, I'll pass it. --Governor Sheng (talk) 23:11, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

It is also said that Neale went to study in Liège. The infobox lists Colleges of St Omer, Bruges and Liège as his alma mater. I think this should be mentioned in the text as well.

Great. Ergo Sum 23:53, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• The preceding paragraph describes that he went to the college. The latter paragraph merely clarifies that at that time, he was at the college's Liege location. It is a bit hazy when precisely the college completed its three moves, which is why the first mention of the college does not specify which of its locations Neale was at when he started. Ergo Sum 15:58, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Good. --Governor Sheng (talk) 23:11, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Maryland missions

This chapter says that Neale opposed Carroll's plans to reform the Jesuit's Maryland manorial administration. What did Caroll's reforms involve? Is it just an orientation towards higher education, instead of missionary work in rural areas?

• I have gone through the book to see if I can find out what exactly it means by reform of the administration, but cannot infer it. Ergo Sum 16:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I also did a research on this. Raymond J. Kupke writes in American Catholic Preaching and Piety in the Time of John Carroll that Catholic education was organised in these manors. I assume the reform was to move the education from manors to colleges? Can you do more research on this. I consider it very important, as this is mentioned in the lead as well. --Governor Sheng (talk) 23:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's essentially right. I re-read the first portion of the At Peace... book and updated the body sentence to reflect that the reform was to shift priority from the manors to the college. Ergo Sum 17:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Establishment of Georgetown Chapel

The article mentions how Neale was appointed the first pastor of the Georgetown Chapel somewhere in 1790, but he was only able to arrive there on 13 January 1792. Why? Can you find some explanation? Was this delay also due to the aforementioned illness?

• Yes, it was due to illness. I've added this to the sentence. Ergo Sum 16:27, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

OK. --Governor Sheng (talk) 23:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, the chapter states that in April 1797 Caroll requested Neal's transfer from Georgetown to the Jesuit estate in White Marsh, Maryland. What are the reasons for that?

• It seems this stemmed from the running disagreements, as the previous sentence suggests. Ergo Sum 16:24, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Fine. --Governor Sheng (talk) 23:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Georgetown College

In the first sentence, "pro tempore" should be in cursive.

• Done. Ergo Sum 16:05, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

In August 1797, a special committee of Maryland clergy was drawn up to determine the future of the college. By whom? As far as I understand, the college was founded by Caroll, and as such, it was owned by the diocese? If so, who gave the authority to those clergy to make decisions about the future of the college? This is very important since they decided to deprive Caroll of any power in the college. Why would Caroll allow such a thing? Was he pressured to organise some sort of an independent committee?

• The ownership and administration of the college was a rather complicated and contested affair that is described in greater detail on the History of Georgetown University article and in some of the other presidents' biographies. To my understanding, it was not owned by the diocese but by various bodies of former Jesuit clergy that were incorporated at different times. I can't quite pin down which of those bodies owned it (it doesn't much matter since they all acted essentially as stand-ins for the suppressed Jesuit order). But the source does not elaborate why this committee was constituted in the first place. Ergo Sum 16:17, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, in the second paragraph, it is said that Robert Robert Molyneux was succeeded by his nephew Matthews as president of the college and that he resigned eventually. Why did he resign? Can we know this?

• Matthews' resignation is described in the William Matthews (priest) article. I'm not sure it benefits this article to repeat it here, however. I've rephrased the sentence to obviate any ambiguity. Ergo Sum 16:18, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

"His administration of the college was poor, as he instituted the same severe monastic discipline that his brother, Leonard, had previously implemented at the college during his presidency. There should be a link to Leonard Neale, as he is mentioned in this section for the first time.

• WP:DUPLINK instructs that a link should only appear once in an article, excluding the lede and infobox. Ergo Sum 16:20, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Involvement in the restored Jesuits

"Neale and his brother, Charles, led a group of clergy in persistently urging Carroll to effectuate the arrangement." Also link to Charles Neale is necessary.

• Same as above. Ergo Sum 16:21, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Later life

"Upon his brother, Leonard's, death in 1817"... Link to Leonard, for the same reason mentioned above.

• Same as above. Ergo Sum 16:21, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

The article is very interesting, easy to read. Except for the above remarks, very well written and covered by sources. All the essential aspects of Francis Neal's life are explained and there are no unexplained circumstances or sudden transitions. --Governor Sheng (talk) 21:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your feedback, Governor Sheng. Ergo Sum 16:28, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

@Governor Sheng:, have you had a chance to give my comments a look? Ergo Sum 21:22, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Of course. Sorry for the delay. I'll review your comments this evening or tommorow. --Governor Sheng (talk) 22:01, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Do you have any additional feedback you anticipate adding here, Governor Sheng? Ergo Sum 23:54, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Everything is ok, except the part about the manorial reform. I really want to know what was it about. You mentioned this issue in the lead as well, so I find it very important. I researched the issue myself, and found that the Jesuits organised education there. Perhaps, Carroll wanted to take that away from them and transfer the education to Georgetown University? Can you search for scientific articles or other books on this? --Governor Sheng (talk) 00:14, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Governor Sheng How does the article's wording on that strike you now? Ergo Sum 17:57, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Ergo Sum, it will do. Good work. --Governor Sheng (talk) 16:16, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Assessment

Well written:

• the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct; and
• it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

Verifiable with no original research:

• it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;
• all inline citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;
• it contains no original research; and
• it contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism.

Broad in its coverage:

• it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and
• it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:

• media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
• media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Promoting the article. --Governor Sheng (talk) 16:18, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.