Talk:1893 Franco-Siamese crisis

War?

Is the conflict actually referred to as a war? I understand that there was no full-scale fighting, and searches for "Franco-Siamese War" return more results for the 1941 campaign than this. --Paul_012 ^(talk) 16:50, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Mark Twain referred to it this way: "News comes that within this week Siam has acknowledged herself to be, in effect, a French province." --Pawyilee (talk) 09:24, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No WP guidelines that I'm aware of (or are mentioned below) indicate the need for a formal declaration before "War" can be used in a title, and no consensus for the new name. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:34, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

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Franco-Siamese War → Franco-Siamese dispute of 1893 – Looking through Google Books results, most sources don't refer to the dispute as a war. I don't know what practices were at the time, but if a formal declaration is needed for an incident to be called a war then this wasn't one. --Relisted. Armbrust, B.Ed. ^{WrestleMania XXVIII} _{The Undertaker 20–0} 09:08, 6 June 2012 (UTC) Paul_012 (talk) 14:21, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• Support per nom and WP:NCE. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 12:34, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: Not sure whether that should be a hyphen or en dash. --Paul_012 (talk) 10:44, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Should definitely be a hyphen because Franco is a combining form. Jenks24 (talk) 05:17, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose for the moment. Looking at gbooks, I think the current title is the common name. I get 849 hits for "Franco-Siamese War", compared to only 203 for "Franco-Siamese dispute". Not to mention that I think "of 1893" is unnecessary. Jenks24 (talk) 05:22, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Quite a few of those results actually refer to the Franco-Thai War of 1940–41 and not this one. Others mentioned "Franco-Siamese war" (with a small w). Looking at results for France Siam history 1893, various terms are used in referring to the series of events, including conflict, confrontation, dispute, blockade, ultimatum, controversy, etc. The only widely recognised name is "Paknam Incident" (which is a separate article). What I'm trying to suggest is that "Franco-Siamese War" isn't widely accepted as a proper name for the subject (in contrast to, for example, "World War II"), and the article would likely be better served by a descriptive title (hence the suggested "of 1893"). "Dispute" may not be the best term, but if "war" is used, I think it should be de-capitalised. Using a different word would avoid ambiguity with the 1940–41 war, though. --Paul_012 (talk) 10:15, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Enough sources use the current term that I believe we ought to keep it. I would not oppose moving this to Franco-Siamese War (1893) and redirecting the current title to the article Franco-Thai War, so long as we remove the hatnote here and fix all the links to go to the right article. Srnec (talk) 05:39, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Article title

Bertdrunk, would you care to elaborate on why you reverted the move? As suggested back in the 2012 RM, the term doesn't appear to be treated as a proper name by most sources, so it should be de-capitalised. While the RM didn't agree on the move to Franco-Siamese dispute of 1893, nobody actually opposed the suggestion to rename the article to Franco-Siamese war with a lowercase w. --Paul_012 (talk) 19:10, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I didn't saw it was recently moved, I moved it cause I never ever saw a title without "War" capitalized. Bertdrunk (talk) 21:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Paul_012, so should the article be capitalized? Fortunatestars (talk) 05:49, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

I still think it should be renamed to have war uncapitalised, but seeing as it might not be uncontroversial it'd probably need an RM. I'd like to think this over a bit more though. --Paul_012 (talk) 17:03, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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• Map of Siam (territorial cessions).svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:38, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 11 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to 1893 Franco-Siamese crisis. Participants agreed that this event is not widely described as a "war". The year is being appended to the title as, while it was not in the original proposal, it ultimately achieved unanimous support in the discussion. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

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Franco-Siamese War → Franco-Siamese crisis – or Franco-Siamese conflict – Revisiting this. Having gone through Google Books results for "Franco-Siamese war", "Franco-Siamese crisis", and "Franco-Siamese conflict", it appears that "Franco-Siamese crisis" is by far the most commonly used by sources directly discussing the event, as well as contemporary ones and the history summaries presented in travel guides. Conflict comes second. In contrast, "Franco-Siamese war" was only found in passing or one-off mentions in works whose focus lay elsewhere.

Here's a breakdown of the results I checked that were more directly relevant.

Works that use "crisis":

• Books
  • Shane Strate, The Lost Territories: Thailand’s History of National Humiliation
  • Historical Dictionary of Thailand
  • Pierre Brocheux, Daniel Hémery, Indochina: An Ambiguous Colonization, 1858-1954
  • Jittipat Poonkham, A Genealogy of Bamboo Diplomacy: The Politics of Thai Détente with Russia and China
• Contemporary sources
  • UK Parliamentary Debates
  • The Contemporary Review
  • Das Staatsarchiv
  • The Antiquary
  • British and Foreign State Papers
• Travel guides
  • DK Eyewitness Travel Guide Thailand
  • The Rough Guide to Thailand

Works that use "conflict":

• Books
  • Asian Forms of the Nation
  • Space and Time in Thai-Lao Relations: Borderlands in International Relations
  • Routledge Handbook of Southeast Asian History
  • Chandran Jeshurun, The Contest for Siam, 1889-1902: A Study in Diplomatic Rivalry
  • Journal of the Malaysian Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society
• Contemporary sources
  • The Peacemaker and Court of Arbitration
  • Journal of the Manchester Geographical Society
  • UK Parliamentary Debates
  • etc.

Works that use both "crisis" and "conflict"

• Books
  • Thongchai Winichakul, Siam Mapped: A History of the Geo-Body of a Nation
  • Locating Southeast Asia: Geographies of Knowledge and Politics of Space
  • Volker Grabowsky, Regions and National Integration in Thailand, 1892-1992
  • The Land Boundaries of Indochina: Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam

As mentioned, I didn't find any directly relevant works among those that used "war".

Personally, I slightly prefer "crisis", as "Franco-Thai conflict" sounds a bit too vague/general. (There's also one source that uses "Franco-Siamese conflict" to refer to the Siamese revolution of 1688.) Also, several of the above sources do append "of 1893" on first mention, so Franco-Siamese crisis of 1893 and Franco-Siamese conflict of 1893 are also options to consider. Paul_012 (talk) 01:42, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

• Pinging Presidentman, Jenks24 and Srnec, who participated in the 2012 RM. --Paul_012 (talk) 01:44, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Thailand has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:01, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject France has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:01, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:04, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Vietnam has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nominator. I checked Google Books for "1893 France Siam" and variations (e.g. including Grosgurin) and "war" does not seem to appear very frequently at all. (While we're here, let's also delete the questionable Template:Campaignbox Franco-Siamese War, where there is one incident treated as if it was a battle...) SnowFire (talk) 17:09, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
  • I am also fine with 1893 Franco-Siamese crisis per Srnec (although would mildly prefer the date first, with Srnec's title as a redirect). SnowFire (talk) 09:56, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose the move as proposed, but I support a move to a title that includes the date, such as Franco-Siamese crisis of 1893. —Srnec (talk) 01:42, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
• As mentioned in the nom, I'm also good with including the year. No preference either way. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:34, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.