Talk:Franz Miklosich

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Requested move 21 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 03:29, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

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Franc Miklošič → Franz Miklosich – 1) The name form Franz Miklosich is much more common in published English sources than Franc Miklošič; for example, 54 hits for Miklosich vs. 20 hits for Miklošič; 2) The spelling Franz Miklosich is the only one found in Google Ngram, and the surname spelling Miklosich is also clearly dominant in English; 3) Miklosich himself consistently used the spelling Miklosich when publishing in an "international" language (i.e., in Latin and German), but Miklošič when publishing in Slovene, and signed his own name Miklosich; 4) The spelling Miklosich is found on the grave of Miklosich and his family. Doremo (talk) 06:56, 21 January 2019 (UTC)--Relisted. –Ammarpad (talk) 08:23, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

A note on spelling: The "original" Slovenian spelling of Miklosich's name was Mikloshizh, not Miklošič (the spelling Miklošič was not introduced until the 1840s, when Miklosich was already an adult and had relocated to Vienna). In addition to his usual Miklosich, he also occasionally signed himself Miklossich, Mikloshizh, Mikloschitsch, and Miklošić (cf. Matija Murko, Izbrano delo, 1962, p. 366).

• Strong oppose we stick with modern European spelling for 19th Century European names. The proposal isn't even the correct 19th Century spelling. Will open up 100,000s of 19th Century bio articles to "authentic name" debates to try and juggle conflicting sources. Duplicate article stubs, mislinks, etc. Leave the Bio article corpus with modern spellings as it is. Thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:49, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Based on published works, Miklosich is a modern (21st-century) and common spelling (used by Encyclopædia Britannica, inter alia), not an antiquated spelling. Please explain how Franz (von) Miklosich is not "even the correct 19th Century spelling". This move proposal concerns the most appropriate name for this article, not for "100,000s". Doremo (talk) 09:23, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

He's Slovene sl:Franc Miklošič we don't need a German spelling. Britannia is notoriously bad at preserving unrevised content from earlier editions. stick with current sources In ictu oculi (talk) 13:48, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

It's the subject's own spelling (and the preferred English spelling by all evidence), not a "German" spelling. Also, your link above yields fewer hits than the Miklosich spelling. Doremo (talk) 13:49, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I looked at the books that use Miklosich and many of the hits either cite the full title of his books in German from the 19th Century or are old books. Also, I see 991 hits with Miklošič vs. 743 Miklosich. From another point of view, there are bunch of things like streets, parks, and schools named after him and they all use the modern spelling. --Tone 16:23, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

It sounds like you're referring to Slovenian usage, not English usage. Doremo (talk) 18:11, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

I was referring to the line immediately above my comment, which contradicts the links. If you are looking at contemporary usage in English, check "Miklošič park" or "Miklošič street" to demonstrate that this spelling is used extensively. --Tone 22:07, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

"Miklošič park" and "Miklošič street" refer to microtoponyms in Slovenia. They do not refer directly to the subject of this article. One finds "Miklošičeva street" with far greater frequency, but that is not a reason to title this article "Miklošičeva". Doremo (talk) 03:49, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

They are named after him, use the spelling, and are used in English-based sources. You are still failing to convince me that the archaic spelling is the predominant one in the international literature. --Tone 08:06, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

I think 54 hits for Franz Miklosich was vs. 20 hits for Fran Miklošič was is very good evidence that Miklosich is the modern international spelling, as well as 21 hits for was Franz Miklosich vs. 1 hit for was Franc Miklošič. These are English sources discussing the subject of this article, and many of them were published after 2000. The preference for Miklosich in published English sources seems overwhelming. Doremo (talk) 09:09, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Other informative English strings from published sources: 970 hits for by Franz Miklosich vs. 152 hits for by Franc Miklošič; 9 hits for with Franz Miklosich vs. 0 hits for with Franc Miklošič; 29 hits for to Franz Miklosich 4 hits for to Franc Miklošič. Everything published in English about the man appears to prefer the spelling Miklosich. Doremo (talk) 10:27, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I'd buy that, but after looking at some of the first results on these pages, I see a bunch of old books, that obviously use the old spelling, and several cases where the name is just copied from older sources. To convince me I'd like to see some modern monographies where the old spelling is used throughout the work, not only in references. Honestly, there is a mess in this field, for example there is one source [1] that is entirely inconsistent and even uses Fran instead of Franc or Franz in the title. And there is this gem, his book [2] where someone manually corrected the surname to German spelling. I'll see if some other editors weigh in. --Tone 13:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't view Miklosich as an "old" spelling (any more than, say, Tchaikovsky, Czech, or czar are old spellings); the orthography with č š ž was introduced in Slovenia in the 1840s, and so Miklosich had 50 years to consider changing the spelling of his name (and didn't). Your book link is interesting; it's scanned from a Czech library, and the librarian probably added the Miklosich spelling for cataloging purposes. Doremo (talk) 13:26, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Miklosich is mentioned as Miklosich in running text in these recent works (far from exhaustive); I don't think any of them are reprints of older works: Diachronic Slavonic Syntax (2018), Gipsies—Forgotten Children of India (2017), Linguistic Interference and Convergent Change (2017), John II Komnenos, Emperor of Byzantium (2016), Theory of Language (2011), Languages and Cultures: Studies in Honor of Edgar C. Polomé (2010), The Origin of Our Knowledge of Right and Wrong (2009), Dutch Contributions to the Fourteenth International Congress of Slavists (2008), Austrian-Greek Encounters Over the Centuries (2007), Encyclopedia of Language & Linguistics (2006), The Role of the Romanies (2005), Immanent Realism: An Introduction to Brentano (2006), Gypsy Identities 1500–2000 (2004), A History of the University in Europe (2004), Of Cabbages—and Kings: Lexicological and Etymological Studies on Russian Plant Nomenclature (2003), Études balkaniques (in French, 2003), Romani: A Linguistic Introduction (2002) Doremo (talk) 13:42, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Well done! This is the argument I was looking for. I am now neutral on the question, since there are nevertheless several examples both variants being used. But nice research indeed, kudos :) --Tone 08:52, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

• Support per well-researched and defended nomination. —  AjaxSmack  02:12, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Thanks for the research. Excellent work! --В²C ☎ 01:52, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.