Talk:Frederick Delius

Article expansion

User:Tim rileyand I have begun a major expansion project, the aim of which is to bring the Delius article up to the standard of other British composer articles (Walton, Elgar, etc) some of which are FAs. We hope to be ready for a full peer review towards the end of January. Obviously, any help or suggestions will be most welcome; please bring any ideas to this talkpage.

As part of this process the partial list of works will be replaced by a complete list in a separate linked article. This should be in place within a few days. Brianboulton (talk) 09:49, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

The "Recording projects" section in the pre-expansion article contained interesting and useful information, but in too great a detail for a summary biographical article. There is scope, and probably sufficient information, for a separate article/list on the Delius discography, which exists in a rather muddled form within the Delius Society web pages. For the purpose of the current article, I have reduced the section to a couple of summary paragraphs. Also, fair use of the non-free image of the 1929 gramophone record cannot, alas, be justified in this article, in accordance with WP policy. It could, perhaps, be justified as part of a "discography" article. Brianboulton (talk) 11:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Recent additions

Does anyone share my view that the recent editions by Winstonsmith99 are, at best, peripheral and would be better confined to footnotes, or, better still, deleted? Tim riley (talk) 09:15, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I personally liked the comment on Grenz and combined the statement into the prior sentence to make it flow better and read like less of a side note. The quote by Debussy is interesting, does not hinder the article in any way, but is not essential either. Its inclusion or removal is superfluous.4meter4 (talk) 17:40, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

* Grez addition: not very useful, and ref cited doesn't back up the assertion - delete

* 1959 litigation: can't see the point of including this - delete

* some orchestras find Delius dull: it's Michael Kennedy (music critic) who says this, and that does carry some weight - mention Kennedy and leave in

* Anderson/Lloyd Webber: rather tendentious and the ref doesn't exactly support the assertion - delete or provide a better example

* Tyneside Metro: irrelevant trivia - delete

* Debussy quote: OK, leave but maybe move up a bit

* Neville Cardus quotes: OK, but sentence needs improving - link to Cardus, and two instances of "critic" is one too many

--GuillaumeTell 17:57, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

This editor (Winstonsmith) tends to add stuff to articles without discussion. If he used talk pages or peer reviews to put forward his suggestions, that would be fine; useful contributions are always welcome. Unfortunately, he chooses to edit away without regard to others' wishes or opinions. He is an infrequent WP editor (around 150 total edits since March 2010) and to judge from his userpages, uncommunicative. I had already deleted the Tyneside trivia once. Of his recent additions I broadly agree with Guillaume as expressed above. I also feel that the additional Cardus material at the end of the music section doesn't really add anything to what has already been said about the nature of Delius's music, though it is well expressed. I suggest we can keep the information, but I will reword it (it is much too much a repetition of the source) and reposition it - it is inappropriately placed in a "memorials and legacy" section. I agree that the Debussy stuff is probably worth keeping. Otherwise I propose to delete the rest. I ask that all editors with a serious regard for this article watch out for further attempts to reinsert inappropriate material during the forthcoming FAC. Brianboulton (talk) 19:18, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for the contributions above, and huge thanks to Brianboulton for making the running on this, and indeed on the article in toto. Tim riley (talk) 18:46, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

River photo

The picture of the St.Johns River in this entry is inaccurate and misleading, and should be removed. It shows the river at Astor, closer to Orlando than to Jacksonville, about 40 miles south of where Delius lived. In that area, the St Johns is almost three miles wide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.82.147.240 (talk) 18:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree – the photograph shows the river much farther south from Delius's house, which was on the east bank of the St John's, 20m west of St Augustine and c. 35m south of Jacksonville. I have deleted the image – will see if anything more appropriate is available. Brianboulton (talk) 13:08, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

The Kate Bush song?

Just looking through this in connection to the TfA nom, I was surprised there was no mention of the Kate Bush song "Delius", the B-side of the "Army Dreamers" single. This source could probably be used to establish the connection, although it comments that it may have been more inspired by Song of Summer (its subtitle) than the composer's actual work. I think there's some discussion in commentary on Bush that does note she claims him as an influence ... I'll try to find it. Daniel Case (talk) 03:19, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Though it may be of interest in Ms Bush's article to mention that she liked, and claimed to be influenced by, Delius, I don't think it's of great relevance to the Delius page. On the whole we don't drag pop songs into articles about composers: e.g. Chuck Berry's Beethoven song is not mentioned in the Beethoven article, or Procul Harem's "Whiter Shade of Pale" in Bach's. – Tim riley (talk) 07:24, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

With respect, and with awareness of the inaptness of this metaphor, I submit that you are comparing apples and oranges here:

• First, Delius is hardly as well-known a composer as Bach or Beethoven. I would likely not have heard of him if it weren't for Kate Bush (this is not to say that no one would have heard of him without that song; obviously you and many others did). So it could be argued that the song helped broaden his notability.
• Second, the song "Delius" is entirely about him (lyrically, at least; I can't say about the music). Its title notwithstanding, "Roll Over Beethoven" has only that passing mention in the chorus, and "A Whiter Shade of Pale" is more relevant to Ich steh mit einem Fuß im Grabe, BWV 156 (although unmentioned in that article) than it is to Bach's work as a whole.

More to the point, I think it's quite likely that, if this goes on the Main Page in five weeks as we all hope it will, there will be multiple attempts to add it to the article, possibly triggering potentially uncivil discussions here and page protection. Having this discussion now, when we can do it calmly, might at least help forestall that. Daniel Case (talk) 15:52, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

That's a good point. It doesn't, in the last analysis, really matter if a bit of information is added that is of questionable importance (nobody has to read it) and there is a case for adding it discreetly and unobtrusively before the numberless hordes of Philistia descend come TFA. I'd be interested to know what others think about this. Tim riley (talk) 16:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't see much wrong with adding to the "legacy" section a properly cited reference to the Bush song, and Kate's musical debt to Fred. Her WP article has more than 10 times the daily visits as Fred's; not a decisive argument, but perhaps an indicator of their relative contemporary cultural significance. All I ask is that it is done, as Tim suggests, discreetly and unobtrusively – and with brevity. Brianboulton (talk) 22:33, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

A B-side of a song from 1980 that didn't make the top ten? I'm not sure it's worth the candle, but I suppose that adding it en passant to ensure that it's not bloated out to undue weight by the Delius-loving Bush fans may be worthwhile. - SchroCat (talk) 22:42, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I can't see a suitable place in the article for it. What a pity we are not allowed to link to YouTube; an external link, "Kate Bush's song about Delius", would be ideal. Rothorpe (talk) 23:35, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It wouldn't hurt to mention it briefly at the end of the paragraph in the Legacy section about Ken Russell's Song of Summer. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:09, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Done. Thanks to all for comments above. Please tweak the addition ad lib. (I watched the YouTube video that Rothorpe mentions. I don't think I heard any recycled Delius music in the song, but am perfectly willing to be told I'm wrong. The lyric gives old Fenby a passing mention, which is rather nice.) Tim riley (talk) 09:45, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

While it's true that editors are generally discouraged from adding YouTube links, they are not prohibited. After all, we have a template just for that purpose. Where a song has been uploaded to by the artist themselves, or by an entity that holds the copyright, there should be no problem. The example given by Daniel Case, at the start of this thread, appears to be unsuitable, as it is very probably a copyright infringement. A quick search at YT shows that the song video has been uploaded here by a channel called "The Sensual World Of Kate Bush" and given that it's been there unchallenged for two years, it seems possible it is copyright compliant. But the audio is also available at the "KateBushMusic" channel, saying explicitly it is "Provided to YouTube by Parlophone UK" and has been there for 7 years. Regardless of any YT link, however, it might be more productive to consider creating an article for the song itself? Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 12:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

New Yorker Cartoon

There's a New Yorker cartoon from the nineties that references Delius's blindness. [1] Is this just in reference to the fact he remained productive?
Ulmanor (talk) 14:37, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what it means – possibly a play on "blind" as in "blind drunk"? But I didn't split my sides. Brianboulton (talk) 10:10, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think it does mean that. Very poor indeed from the great Ronald Searle, though I loved the cat under the sunlamp. Tim riley talk 10:15, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Further reading?

Hello. I'm wondering whether the following might be suitable candidates for inclusion:

• Jefferson, Alan (1972). Delius. The Master Musicians. London: Dent. ISBN 978-0-460-03131-8.
• Jenkins, Lyndon (2005). While spring and summer sang: Thomas Beecham and the music of Frederick Delius. Aldershot: Ashgate. ISBN 978-0-7546-0721-2.
• Smith, Barry, ed. (2000). Frederick Delius and Peter Warlock: A Friendship Revealed. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0198167068.

Also perhaps:

• Carley, Lionel; Threlfall, Robert (1983). Delius: A Life in Pictures. London: Thames Publishing. ISBN 978-0905210230.

Best wishes, 86.181.64.67 (talk) 13:34, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for those suggestions. I have Jefferson's biography of Beecham, and know him to be reliable and readable; I've used the Jenkins book as a source in another article. I know not of Barry Smith, but any book from the OUP can be relied on, I'd have thought. I'd certainly vote for adding them to the list of further reading if other editors agree. Tim riley talk 13:42, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The delius.org.uk website a has quite very comprehensive list which includes the Carley and Threlfall (1983) book: [2] Martinevans123 (talk) 14:23, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

I don't know the preferred pronunciation of Delius. I came to Wikipedia to find it. On not finding it, I thought that it would not to mark the lack of the pronunciation. Apparently I am mistaken. Now I find myself ignorant on another topic: What are Wikipedia's criteria for including a pronunciation? Help. TomS TDotO (talk) 01:05, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

It rhymes with Cornelius. Do feel free to add IPA pronunciation symbols. Tim riley talk 16:03, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Bravo! I have tweaked slightly, with the aim of giving him his usual three full syllables, but I am no expert at IPA and will bow to superior expertise. Tim riley talk 13:54, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Afterthought: I've just looked to see how Sibelius is treated, and I see that both the full four syllables and the three-and-a-half syllable version are given. I don't think we want a two-and-a-half version for Delius, do we? He normally gets all three – or am I wrong? Tim riley talk 13:58, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't know. But I do know that an accent is needed. And I don't know whether a schwa is needed. TomS TDotO (talk) 19:55, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

I realised that the pronunciation is on Dictionary.com. The one in the article now matches Collins' one, which specifies only one pronunciation, while Random House specifies (without IPA) both the two- and the three-syllable pronunciations. I'm happy with just the current one. --Deeday-UK (talk) 22:09, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Quite so. Nobody saying either "dee-lee-uh s" (as I do) or "deel-yuh s" is going to be misunderstood. Good job: thank you Deeday. Tim riley talk 12:25, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Why Limpsfield

@Tim riley: The paragraph on Delius' burial begins: "By May 1935, Jelka felt she had enough strength to undertake the crossing to attend a reburial in England. St Peter's Church, Limpsfield, Surrey, was chosen." Rather mysterious: why Limpsfield? Delius had never been there (and hated the CofE)... but someone (Percy Grainger?) came out with this "country churchyard" idea. I believe it was Beatrice Harrison, the cellist, who was responsible for choosing Limpsfield (where she lived). A quick websearch produces village website [3] which confirms this -- "He died in 1934 and was buried at Grez-sur-Loing, but at the request of the Harrison sisters his body was disinterred and re-buried in Limpsfield in 1935." (How many sisters were involved is unclear).　Perhaps someone can find a better reference (I've just ordered the Beecham biography of Delius, but don't know if that will help), and anyway, I think some addition is appropriate. Imaginatorium (talk) 05:45, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

If you really think the information is interesting and important enough to add, you won't find it in Beecham's book, but you will find it in Lucas's biography of Beecham, on page 221: 'Jelka had chosen the village for her husband's reburial because it was near the home of May and Beatrice Harrison – Delius had dedicated works to them'. See also Jenkins 2005, pp. 72–73: Delius had expressed a wish to be buried in England; his native county, Yorkshire, was mooted but Jelka agreed with Beecham's advice to the contrary. But though this information about the Harrison connexion is admirable in a 200-page book, I doubt that it justifies its space in an encyclopaedia portrait of 3,500 words. The writers of the Delius articles in Grove and the ODNB evidently are of that opinion: neither of them mentions the Harrisons in connexion with the choice of Limpsfield. I think we are well advised to follow their example. – Tim riley talk 08:30, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I do think the information is relevant and interesting. I also think the argument that such and such a source does not mention something means we should not either is simply invalid (actually ridiculous). When I read encyclopaedia articles I want them to answer my questions, rather than just raise more questions; I suppose if a short article says "Delius is buried in Limpsfield", one could not object, but the current wording says "Limpsfield was chosen", raising the obvious question "By whom?" (to which there is no obvious answer). I watched the BBC film on Delius (made in MMX-something?) last night, which prompted this: we saw a newspaper from the time, and a reconstruction of a midnight burial. This was not exactly a normal arrangement, and cries out for explanation. Imaginatorium (talk) 09:03, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

We must agree to differ on following the judgment of the Grove and ODNB experts. As the merest amateur I take careful note of what the professionals think is or is not important. Amateur interpretations, as in the website you cite above, can get things horribly wrong: it is a travesty of the facts to say, as the page you quote does, that Delius's body was disinterred and reburied at the the request of the Harrisons. But you are right that we could say that it was Jelka's choice, and I have so edited the text, and added a note on her reason for it. The midnight burial is not terribly sensational: Fenby accompanied the coffin from France, and it was nearly midnight when he and it reached the churchyard. The coffin was interred straight away with a modest gathering present, the vicar saying a suitable prayer, and the grave was covered with temporary boarding until the main funeral service the following afternoon, at which the LPO played and Beecham gave his oration before a congregation of more than 1,000 people. I haven't seen the film you mention (unless it is the 1960s Ken Russell one, which I saw at the time and remember only patchily), but if it gave the impression of an extravagant and mysterious midnight ceremony it was indulging in poetic licence. Again, we could spell out in a footnote the details of the reburial if you think the extra detail would be welcomed by readers. Tim riley talk 10:25, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Hidden comments

The problem with hidden comments along the lines of "Don't add an infobox because a WikiProject doesn't like them" is that it has a chilling effect on editors who don't understand that Wikiprojects have no standing to demand that an infobox may not be added. The decision on having an infobox or not is a matter for consensus on each article, and that is policy. If there has already been a discussion on a particular article, and a consensus reached not to have an infobox, then it is helpful to have an html comment drawing the editor's attention to that (possibly archived) discussion, and I'd be very much in favour of maintaining such notes. That is, however, not the situation here, as I can find no previous discussion of an infobox on this article. It is not acceptable to have a note which effectively prevents any consensus from being discussed, as if the matter were already settled by fiat of a single editor or Wikiproject. We build this encyclopedia by allowing people to edit, not forbidding it for no good reason. --RexxS (talk) 19:31, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

First we were told that failure to have a hidden comment made it hard for editors to know not to add an infobox. Now you say that the hidden comment has a "chilling effect." The fact is that you just want to have a pile of code at the top of every article containing redundant infobox information, even in these arts biographies, usually riddled with errors and always emphasizing unimportant factoids at the expense key information. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:52, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Quite so. Rex gives the game away in of his recent edit summaries, with the unqualified statement that it is not a mistake to add an info-box. The reality is that where an article has been through PR and FAC without an I-B any subsequent attempt to add one will almost certainly be reverted for lack of a consensus for one, and it is a kindness to spare well-meaning editors that waste of work. We can tweak the message if wanted, but it is there to help editors new to the article. Regular contributors, of course, need no such help. Tim riley talk 06:47, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Objection to euphemistic omissions concerning Delius

There are only hints and metaphors in this article dealing with Delius in his adult life before and after his marriage to Jelka. Specifically, there is not one direct word here about how he contracted the syphilis that so affected his life and Jelka's, or his regular infidelities, both in Paris and Grez.

If there were a formal protest mechanism, I would use it, as I feel that the common loose or immoral behavior of many composers, particularly of Beethoven and Delius, deserves to be better known as part of their biographical context and an understanding of their musical development.

The patience and devotion of Delius's wife are more fully appreciated when this context is available. And since Delius is not living, WP:BLP does not limit adding such relevant information. The little that I added to this article years ago has long since been removed. All we have left are his "nice" behaviors, which is only part of his full story. David Spector (talk) 18:36, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Kate Bush

ithas been suggested to me that kate bushs song Delius(Song Of Summer) does not add to delius' legacy despite its large cultural impact on pop music and the younger generations as it plagiarises delius, any opinions? should i add in my edit again? capstar (talk) 11:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

A B-side from the 1980s doesn't seem to add to the knowledge of Delius, but is a step too far away. I would think a B-side of a song that didn't get into the top ten anywhere could be described as having a "large cultural impact on pop music and the younger generations" either. - SchroCat (talk) 11:53, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It was No 2 in Israel, apparently. How ironic. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't find that ironic at all, many Israelis understand the loss of a child or relative to the army, due to conscription and deadly wars, please don't get political. -Mambo capstar (talk) 15:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it was about British soldiers, not Israeli ones. Things looked a lot better back then. Bush can't have guessed what might happen 44 years later, nor her Israeli fans. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

See above @ The Kate Bush song? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Ahh yes thank you both of you, I guess it is probably best left in the song of summer and Kate bush pages capstar (talk) 12:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it's surprising that the song and video are not mentioned anywhere at Kate Bush, but only at Kate Bush discography and Army Dreamers. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC) p.s. I have also added a note above in "The Kate Bush song?" thread.