Talk:Frederick W. Lander

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Middle name "West" is incorrect

See page 299 on Gary L. Ecelbarger book and Appleton's 1863 Cyclopaedia. "West" is incorrect. The grave marker is also incorrect. This has been well-documented. Please read the source material. Stefan01902 (talk) 01:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

The United States Library of Congress Name Authority guide has "West." - https://lccn.loc.gov/n94020082 The Smithsonian Institution has "West." - https://npg.si.edu/object/npg_NPG.2016.53 You are leaning on one erroneous source from the 19th century that contradicts the grave marker and all government records and historians. I'm not changing it back. I don't have bandwidth for this. I love Wikipedia, but here is an example of why Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.56.7.2 (talk) 14:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

You seem to not understand that an error can be made in the past and innocently carried forward by multiple seemingly-authoritative organizations.

Also I am citing TWO reliable sources. I will add a third source in a moment.

Please see page 299 and 300 in Ecelbarger's book. Note there that Fred's own brother wrote a biography of the General in 1904 and noted his middle name to be "William".

Yes, I am indeed saying that the United States Library of Congress Name Authority is incorrect. Yes, I am indeed saying that the Smithsonian Institution is incorrect. Even prominent organizations / institutions can be wrong.

Stefan01902 (talk) 17:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, then, maybe you should delete his time at Norwich Military Academy since, forty years after his death, his siblings denied that he went there. At least be consistent. 204.56.7.2 (talk) 18:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate the fact that you're basically trolling me at this point, so all I will say is that the references to "William" go back to 1855.

Feel free to share a source that backs your claim that "his siblings denied that he went there" and we can add to the article that it's contested.

Stefan01902 (talk) 19:08, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I swear I'm not trying to troll you. I pawed my way through a bunch of scanned Salem church documents yesterday, - feeling more than a little silly about spending my free time that way - since a later, printed history derived from the primary source agreed with the name, William. I wasn't looking for proof for this argument, but just some acceptable answer, silly as it sounds.

It isn't easy to eyeball-scan online facsimiles of original ms church books (actually, in one case, a hand-copy of originals), looking for the pixelated name as it would have been stuck originally. As it stands, I'm open to its being either William or West; I just want to know it from a primary source that isn't quoting one of six siblings 80 years after the naming day. I am, however, biased more toward the Library of Congress librarians than toward Wikipedeans. Show me a primary source, and I will turn this vigor on the LOC on Lander's behalf. :) 204.56.7.2 (talk) 15:59, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Ecelbarger is the source that says that his siblings didn't believe that he went to Norwich. About 4 paragraphs before the one you point to as your source for the middle name, William. It's a 2ry source, so I'm not insisting that the Norwich comes out. 204.56.7.2 (talk) 16:10, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

You do wonder, don't you, why the historian, himself, hasn't taken the issue up with the L.O.C.

https://www.worldcat.org/title/44132881 204.56.7.2 (talk) 17:24, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I find this conversation fascinating. p. 299 of Ecelbarger is pretty clear about the West vs. Williams controversy, discusses how the family denies that he went to Norwich, and mentions the LoC. p. 5 of Ecelbarger mentions the name change controversy and states that West was his mother's maiden name. Concerning the LoC, the docs were donated with a particular name so they are not going to be updated. The best we could hope for would be a mention in the record or web page for Lander. About Norwich, we could add that the family denies that he attended, though Norwich feels that he did and cite p. 299 of Ecelbarger. The West vs. Williams controversy seems like trivia, though it might make a "Did You Know". Something like "Did you know that Frederick W. Lander's middle name was changed after his death by his family and that they deny that he attended a military academy?" That seems pretty weak to me, so probably not worth mentioning those two issues at this point with such a short article.

204.56.7.2 (talk · contribs), I encourage you to get a named account, it seems like you have quite a bit of interest in this area and raise some interesting points.Cxbrx (talk) 18:53, 28 February 2023 (UTC)