Talk:Freedom (disambiguation)

Definition

It seems to me that a careful attempt at the definition of the word belongs at the top, before the philosophy/politics split. I would add that, even though I'm somewhat new to wikipedia, the slapping the removal of anyone's definition with the comment "overbearing paternalism" is not that respectful. Perhaps the person that did so was referring not to the attempt at defining the word, but the comment that followed about cultural concepts. Still. Having said that, I propose that we consider providing a neutral attempt at defining the word. Definitions are tricky. But the starting point probably should be: let's do our best to begin to explain the word as if we were defining it for someone who has never heard it. That definition is my best attempt so far. i.e. "Freedom is the absence of restraints upon our ability to think and act. (Except those restraints that are of natural cause.)" Whether or not that's a working definition, I do believe a definition in the article is called for. Passaggio 13:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

This page is designed to help people looking for an article on something named Freedom find that article. It is not meant to inform them itself but get where they are going. Because of that, definitions and helpful information belong on the various pages. In depth discussions (probably even if you really want to get into it regarding the brief description that appears on this page) also belong on a particular article's talk page. I have deleted many entries here because of this. 0¹⁸ (talk) 20:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Removed per User:O18 above and WP:DABNOT. Sparkie82 (t•c) 08:49, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

In Our Time

The BBC programme In Our Time presented by Melvyn Bragg has an episode which may be about this subject (if not moving this note to the appropriate talk page earns cookies). You can add it to "External links" by pasting * {{In Our Time|Freedom|p00548hh}}. Rich Farmbrough, 03:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC).

What, exactly, is this subject? What is this? 0¹⁸ (talk) 16:02, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Freedom (Sugababes song)

This article seems to be protected, but the article Freedom (Sugababes song) should be added unter the Songs header. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.178.142.30 (talk) 20:22, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done Thank you for bringing this to our attention. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 20:46, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Freedom

A topic as important as freedom should have its own page, as well as a disambiguation page. To do that would be a huge amount of work -- more than 500 pages link here, and anyone attempting to create an article on the subject would have to disambiguate each link. Does anyone else think this is important enough to be worth the effort? Rick Norwood (talk) 14:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC) ..Yes absolutely, Rick Norwood:)

It's not. I suggest redirecting to liberty, which seems to summarize the whole concept of freedom. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 14:20, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

The title of this disam page should be Freedom per WP:DABNAME. (See Talk:Freedom (disambiguation)#Rename per WP:DABNAME. Sparkie82 (t•c) 09:14, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. "Freedom" will redirect to Liberty with a hat note pointing to the dab page. Discussion on whether to create a separate article for "Freedom" can continue. Cúchullain ^t/c 19:14, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

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Freedom → Freedom (disambiguation) – Freedom should not be a disambiguation page, but a concept page It appears that this concept page already exists at Liberty. I propose this move so Freedom can be redirected to Liberty. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 11:34, 20 August 2014 (UTC) Oiyarbepsy (talk) 14:24, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Note Possibly related discussion at Talk:Gratis versus libre#Requested move Oiyarbepsy (talk) 14:33, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
• Strong support in principle; clear primary topic. I'd sooner move liberty here, though. Red Slash 03:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment If you agree with Red Slash, I'd say vote "rename Liberty to Freedom" and I'm sure a good admin will do it if everyone says so. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:47, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support with caveat: Yes this should be a primary article and the disambig page moved, but the general concept of freedom is about more than mere human liberty. Freedom applies in many areas - for example an object may be jammed in a small space and have no freedom to move, abstract constructs can have degrees of freedom, and so forth. IMHO Liberty is a subtopic of freedom. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support with caveat: Certainly Liberty and Freedom are both major topics, and so neither should primarily be the name of a disambiguation page. I suggest one page, Liberty, then an automatic redirect from Freedom to Liberty, then at the top of the Liberty page a note: for other meanings of freedom see Freedom (disambiguation). Degrees of freedom can be linked from the disambiguation page. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:16, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. On looking around, it might be better, at least in the first instance, to merge with "Free", which is currently another disambig list having a great deal in common with this one. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:57, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support. I don't mind the caveats, but the proposed move is a step in the right direction. A redirect to Liberty will do, and a page can be made at Draft:Freedom to construct the article to finally be moved over that redirect. bd2412 T 15:24, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

What exactly is the difference between liberty and freedom (excluding distinctly different concept like degrees of freedom)? Is there really any reason to have separate articles and freedom and liberty? Oiyarbepsy (talk) 16:28, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I would say that freedom is a much broader concept. A thing, any thing at all, is free if it can change its state easily and is not constrained in its present state. I might oil a rusty lock so the key has freedom to turn, hack away the undergrowth to give my newly-planted sapling freedom to grow, or consider how much freedom I have to reformulate a certain mathematical equation. Liberty is specifically the social freedom of people to live their lives the way they want and to do the things they want to without being constrained by other people, that is a much more specific concept. For example if I want to climb a certain tree in my garden but have broken my leg, then I am not physically free to climb it, even though socially I am fully at liberty to do so. Degrees of freedom is another such specific idea within the broader picture. I looked at the Freedom (disambiguation) page and thought we needed something more structured to identify, relate and unify all these narrower areas, and less full of specialised lists than that: cutting a clone down and repurposing it would result in something very different from the Liberty article. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:48, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I borrowed some of your above language for the draft. Cheers! bd2412 T 14:33, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Please make a draft of the proposed new broad concept article first. Liberty seems very much incomplete from the point of view of integrating even the current content of freedom as it stands. For example, freedom of speech is barely mentioned, and isn't even linked; academic freedom isn't even mentioned. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:34, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Draft:Freedom. There you go. bd2412 T 14:32, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
    • A rather poor draft. It really puts the emphasis on degrees of freedom which I and others have argued wouldn't belong in a freedom article. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 14:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
      • It's a draft. Please feel free to improve it. Cheers! bd2412 T 19:40, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
        • Nah, I don't think that's worthwhile. Better to improve Liberty. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 20:51, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I'd rather see Liberty expanded to include the things you feel are missing rather create an entirely new article. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 14:26, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Do you think that freedom and liberty are the same thing? bd2412 T 14:05, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
      • I'm having a hard time seeing any real difference. Even if they're not the same thing, they are so similar, that it makes sense to have a single article with a Freedom vs Liberty section if necessary to explain the difference. But, again, I'm not convinced there even is one. For the question at hand, I say redirect Freedom to Liberty now, and if someone can make a good case in a later discussion to split, you can create the separate article. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 14:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
        • I have expanded the draft to explain the distinction. Cheers! bd2412 T 13:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
          • Much better, and it does make the distinction - however, I don't see it enough of a distinction to justify separate articles. The distinction is much clearer, in fact, if liberty and freedom are discussed in the same article. You could start with "Freedom, also known as Liberty...." and the first section would be titled terminology and would discuss the distinction. I see liberty being incorporated into your draft, since it has a lot of material about history and philosophy that your draft doesn't have at the moment. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 14:22, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
            • Comment: I have no strong objection to redirecting this title to Liberty until such time as it is agreed that there is a suitable draft to be moved to this title, nor do I have any objection to merging material from the draft into Liberty. bd2412 T 14:57, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose for now per Joy [Shallot], without prejudice against revisiting the idea later when a more serious article has been written (including if a non-trivial consensus here agrees that goal has been met before this RM ends). While I agree with the observation that "freedom" has meanings beyond those closely related to human liberty, it's clearly the primary topic, and Freedom should not be a DAB/concept page forever. That primary sense of "freedom" is not exactly synonymous with "liberty", however, and the two can sometimes be at odds, because "liberty" implies "freedoms that come with responsibility"; irresponsible exercise of freedoms often has indirect or even direct negative effects on the liberty of others, or even oneself as a member of a class negatively affected by unintended consequences. A redirect to Liberty could only be a temporary measure.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  12:16, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

There seems to be a general consensus that Freedom should not be a disambiguation page, with several people wanting to go ahead and a couple of people wanting to wait. Freedom and Liberty are not identical, but they are so close that two entirely separate articles seems redundant. The subject can be covered in one article, with subheads for differences between the two concepts. Since we already have Liberty, it seems reasonable that "Freedom" automatically redirect to Liberty, with a note at the top: for other uses, see Freedom (disambiguation). This page would be retitled Freedom (disambiguation) and a Freedom page would be created as a redirect.

I would beg to disagree on the end point. Some sources treat human freedom and liberty as synonyms, while others do not. Very few treat spatial (physical) or mathematical (abstract) freedom as forms of liberty. There is overlap but there is also exclusion. Take a look at Draft:Freedom and Liberty and you can see that their focus is very different. One article focuses on the general nature of freedom across all its usages, while the other focuses on social and especially political aspects. Naming the first of these "Freedom" and the second "Liberty" is consistent with WP:TITLE. Merging them into one unfocused blob would be just horrible. However, making Freedom a temporary redirect while we wait for the draft to come up to scratch is fine by me. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Experience suggests that nothing is going to happen until a small group of people (five seems an ideal number) volunteer for the laborious task of checking every page that links to this page, and deciding where the link should go. I am willing to be one of the five, but I'm not willing to do it by myself, and I am not willing to put in the hours needed if someone is just going to revert. Any volunteers? Rick Norwood (talk) 12:13, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Done. Nothing left incoming but links from user space and talk pages, which are not our concern. Cheers! bd2412 T 14:10, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I would appreciate more information about exactly what you have done. There were, at one time, more than five hundred pages that had links to Freedom. Have you removed those links, or changed them to links to Liberty, or what? It sounds like you have done a major good work, but some explanation would seem to be in order. Rick Norwood (talk) 15:00, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

There were fewer than a dozen links in article space, which I fixed to point to the most appropriate article (mostly autonomy, a few for the Apple computer game Freedom!). The rest of the links are on user pages, user talk pages, project space pages, and the like. We don't need to bother with them at all, so long as there are no links to this article from article space. bd2412 T 15:11, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Great! Are we ready to change the name of this article to "Freedom (disambiguation)", create "Freedom" with a redirect to "Liberty", and add to "Liberty" a note "for other uses of Freedom see "Freedom (disambiguation)"? Rick Norwood (talk) 17:46, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm all for it. bd2412 T 19:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Since I made the proposal, I think it would be best if you carried it out, if you are willing.Rick Norwood (talk) 15:52, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Since the discussion was relisted on the 20th, an uninvolved admin will carry out the move/redirect tomorrow. bd2412 T 17:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Support per original proposal. -Ssolbergj (talk) 22:07, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Added a pertinent line:

Freedom: Lacking obsessions (freedom from obsessions).

My edit was reverted

Ok, so my edit was reverted by Mean As Custard maybe 11 days ago, I dunno. Anyway, I've reinserted my constructive edit with a working link to the related thing. Facements (talk) 02:12, 9 December 2016 (UTC)Facements

Requested move 5 March 2017

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Freedom (disambiguation) → Freedom – per WP:DABNAME Sparkie82 (t•c) 09:51, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

This article should be renamed to Freedom per WP:DABNAME. Currently the page at Freedom is just a redirect that is continually changing (to whatever article the last editor who visits it thinks it should be redirected to.) I'm going to transclude this article there until it's moved there. (Note: The 2yo discussion above was not conclusive and since editors keep changing the redirect at Freedom there is no primary topic for this disam. Also, the proposed concept page never materialized.) Sparkie82 (t•c) 09:14, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Also, the concepts Liberty and Freedom are two completely different (although related) concepts, even within the narrow frame of philosophy so neither should redirect to the other. Sparkie82 (t•c) 09:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 15:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC) Withdrawn in favor of alternative proposal below. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:39, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
• Partial support - rather than making this a disambiguation title, let's free the title to move Draft:Freedom here. bd2412 T 15:53, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

The article at the title "Freedom" was originally about the general concept of freedom. It was moved to "Freedom (philosophy)" in 2006, and the title was usupted into a disam page for freedom. Then later that disam page (which was still under the title "Freedom") was moved to "Freedom (disambiguation" in 2014 and instead of redirecting Freedom -> Freedom (disambiguation), "Freedom" was redirected to "Liberty" (even though there was no consensus to do that). Here's the move history: [1]

Leaving a redirect at the page "Freedom" that points to anything other than the disam page just invites editors to change it to whatever they're thinking it should be at the time. I'm fine with having the page "Freedom" go back to a very general type of article about freedom as it originally was, with hatnotes, {{Main article}} links and a full "see also" section. Sparkie82 (t•c) 01:53, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@BD2412: I suggest you propose a merge of Draft:Freedom into Freedom (rather than a move because there is a history now at Freedom which needs to be preverved), and get the general article up in mainspace ASAP to give it more visibility so more editors will work on it. Sparkie82 (t•c) 01:53, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

The edit history under the current redirect can be moved to another title; there is no need to merge that into the edit history of the draft, since the draft does not derive any content from the redirect or its underlying history. bd2412 T 02:00, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@BD2412:Okay. If MShabazz is okay with it, we can do a quick close of this proposal and open a move proposal for Draft:Freedom -> Freedom. Sparkie82 (t•c) 02:25, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Moving Draft:Freedom to Freedom seems like a better suggestion than the move proposal here. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:39, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

• We don't need to open a new process for that - consensus for the alternative proposal can be formed in the discussion already underway. It will save some time. Cheers! bd2412 T 04:57, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I opened this as an official proposal and it was advertised as Freedom (disambiguation) -> Freedom, so we really should close this and open a move proposal Draft:Freedom -> Freedom so all the notices are advertised correctly and placed on the proper articles. We've only put two days into this discussion and we can refer to this discussion in the new proposal. Sparkie82 (t•c) 05:41, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.