Talk:French conquest of Algeria

This is wholly written from a French military perspective

Thomas Robert Bugeaud's 'brilliant' campaigns consisted of mass murder in hundreds of villages, enfumades, suffocating or setting fire to women, children and the elderly holed up in caves to avoid the onslaught, at times several hundred being 'smoked' to death, causing such panic that outside of Constantine, with its waves of artillery bombardment, the cliffs were full of women's bodies throwing themselves over the precipice, of mass famine as every local crop at harvest time was burnt to a crisp, etc.etc., while a brilliant military and political mind like Abdelkader El Djezairi is just dismissed as a jihadi; not a word about what actually occurred on the ground. This could past muster in a 19th century newspaper, it is obscene here, with what we know now. Nishidani (talk) 15:43, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Infobox Strength

These entries are inane, all the deaths being allocated uniquely to the French side. Most of France's military casualties by the way came from diseases like malaria, not war. Either it should be removed or fixed.Nishidani (talk) 19:18, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Maybe the numbers are switched? How should France have more military casualties (150,000-200,000) than troops (160,000)? And there's no way they had even more civilian than military casualties. Where should all those people come from? 2003:84:AD2C:6294:5007:36A5:5EFC:9E2D (talk) 16:30, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

These entries are inane, all the deaths being allocated uniquely to the French side. Most of France's military casualties by the way came from diseases like malaria, not war. Either it should be removed or fixed.
Fixed it temporarily until a certain user:M.Bitton showed up to keep these "inane" casualty figures on the infobox, and now on a section I added as well. Gutsyncti (talk) 13:20, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

What's really stupid in every possible sense is replying to a comment from 2017 and pinging me to boot to attribute your crap to me. sigh. M.Bitton (talk) 13:28, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2018

Change or remove French casualty statistics "150,000-200,000 military[5][6][7][8][9]

More than 480,000 killed (civilian and soldiers).[10]" as they are absurdly high/inaccurate and are somehow higher than the French strength cited in the box immediately above. Even sources do not wholly support casualty figures. Figures are also not in context - i.e do not refer to the fact that casualties were overwhelmingly from disease. 91.212.105.18 (talk) 15:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. If you want to challenge this sourced information, you need to present sources that present something different. By their very nature, infobox numbers do not provide context. That's why we actually have the article body text that does contextualize them. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:29, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually Eggishorn, one of the sources in the article and info box already gives a lower figure of about 95,700. So the source given I’m the info box supports lower casualties than given in the box. The Making of Contemporary Algeria, 1830-1987 - Mahfoud Bennoune, p42. The citation in the info box actually provides a Google Books link.Jgalt87 (talk) 11:32, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Contradiction

The lead and infobox are having a disagreement over whether the war/conquest began in 1827 or 1830 and whether it ended in 1847 or 1857. Srnec (talk) 22:53, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

It started in 1830 and lasted until 1857. The Kabylie campaign is not mentioned in the article (it should be), that's why it's confusing. I corrected the dates. M.Bitton (talk) 00:37, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

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June 2023

@Gutsyncti: when you remove sourced content (as you did) or change it, you're supposed to explain why. Edit warring over it is the last thing you want to do, so please, be nice and explain why you removed it (eg. 480,000 total dead (civilians and soldiers, 1830–1862)) and why you changed the sourced numbers. Also worth noting: your first edit (back in January) was reverted, restoring it is a revert (so, technically, you already reverted two editors). M.Bitton (talk) 10:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

The figure of 480,000 dead refers to Algerian casualties, not French casualties. I removed it because it was incorrectly attributed to French casualties. Why did you remove the casualty figure of 3,336 French killed in action along with the table and source that I added? And why are you replacing the correct campaignbox, "French conquest of Algeria," with the unrelated campaignbox, "Franco-Moroccan conflicts"? Gutsyncti (talk) 10:37, 19 June 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 15:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Nope, it refers to the French casualties, the Algerian casualties (much higher) are mentioned later on in the same source. It's for you to explain your changes (I don't have to clean after you). M.Bitton (talk) 10:42, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

You really believe that? That's hilarious. Gutsyncti (talk) 10:47, 19 June 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 15:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad I'm amusing you. The table that you added is WP:UNDUE and based on ancient source (I see no reason to use such garbage when reliable sources are already mentioned in the article). Given the lack of explanation for the other changes/removal and the continued edit war, I'll make it simple for you: one more revert and you'll be reported to the admins. M.Bitton (talk) 10:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Why so passive aggressive, buddy? I like how you refuse to give an explanation for the removal of the casualty figure of 3,336 French killed in action. Gutsyncti (talk) 12:17, 19 June 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 15:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not your buddy, even less so now that you filed a report to ANI. This discussion is over until the ANI is closed. M.Bitton (talk) 12:19, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not your buddy
I'm hurt. 😢 Gutsyncti (talk) 12:24, 19 June 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 15:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

The source literally talks about 480,000 French deaths, talking about how initially it was military casualties, then civilians, before shifting over to mention the fact that at the bare minimum 500,000 native Algerians died. Stop being dishonest. Whatever748 (talk) 13:35, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@Whatever748: just to let you know that the sourced content that was removed by Gutsyncti back in January and that you restored afterwards, has now been deleted again by them again (as well as other sourced content that they don't agree with). M.Bitton (talk) 12:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for notifying me. He shifts around casualties often using sources describing French deaths on Algerians. This is obviously not apparent at first sight, since the claims appear well sourced, until you read the sources themselves. He also removes any sources which don't support his claims or which show a slightly higher amount of French casualties. He is obviously doing this out of a nationalistic bias. Whatever748 (talk) 13:30, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@Whatever748: Believe it to not, they reported me to ANI for vandalism (pretty hilarious). Anyway, I have reported them to WP:3AN. Unfortunately, in the meantime, their edit still stands. M.Bitton (talk) 13:34, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Yeah, that's good. Reading through his edits he also removed well sourced war crimes and inhumane actions done by the French throughout the article, like removing mentions of the French expelling Algerians to the pacific. The article currently doesn't do the conflict's brutality justice anyway, omitting facts and massacres like that of el Ouffia or the "gassing" and extermination of entire tribes like the Sbeah and the Ouled Riah, along with the general population decline (3-5 million natives in 1830, to just 2.1 million natives in 1872-3), and the fact that this guy is deleting even the few that are in the article is crazy.

Whatever748 (talk) 13:42, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Show the diff were I removed these "well sourced war crimes and inhumane actions done by the French throughout the article". Go ahead, liar, let's see the diff of these removals. Gutsyncti (talk) 13:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 15:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@Gutsyncti actually, this is my bad. This diffSpecial:MobileDiff/1160885128 shows that you removed parts of the article, like the Caledonian expulsion shown in red which confused me, however when reading the article itself, it's still there. I am sorry for this mistaken accusation from my part, however, the other points still stand.

Whatever748 (talk) 14:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@Whatever748 and Skitash: Gutsyncti has been blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet. M.Bitton (talk) 15:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Skitash (talk) 17:24, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@Whatever748 and Skitash: Gutsyncti is now using a vpn and targetting the French colonial empire with their POV (the usual table). Please add the article to your watchlists. Best, M.Bitton (talk) 20:55, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Final section: lack of clarity

'Cultural imperialism in the conquest of Algeria' section could do with rewriting for clarity in English. It's hard to understand, not least through mixing past and present tenses. Reptik (talk) 22:34, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Morocco on the French side!?

The fact that somebody added Morocco in the French side of this conquest and that somebody else is defending keeping it, raised serious concerns for me about the reliability of Wikipedia in general, and specifically of this article. I'm also concerned about the source that M.Bitton added yesterday. How can it be considered reliable to be added to this article? It portrays Emir Andelkader as a legendary hero and it's filled with myths, of course I'm talking about Chrchill's book (Ironically, the author does even mention the Emir's emotions).

There is no doubt that there was an unfortunate "conflict" between the Emir Abdelkader and sultan Abd ar-Rahman of Morocco, but that doesn't imply that Morocco supported the French conquest of Algeria. The thing is that after the defeat of Isly, Morocco made peace with France (treaty of Tangier) and ceased helping Abdelkader's resistance, which means that the sultan had to make Abdelkader leave the Moroccan territory by force, that's it. Another thing is that the article doesn't reflect the fact that Morocco was a primary source of help for the western Algerian resistance (especially that of Andelkader) before 1844, instead, it portrays the Moroccans as traitors. TybenFree (talk) 02:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Whether Abd al-Rahman was forced into helping the French or not is irrelevant to the fact that he did (something that we cannot describe as an unfortunate "conflict"). Besides, he was also forced to help Abdelkader at first and then forced to declare war. M.Bitton (talk) 15:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

The fact that he outlawed Abdelkader from his territory doesn't mean Morocco was in the French side, If Morocco is mentioned on the French side in this article, it may give the impression that Moroccan armies were cooperating with the French in conquering Algeria. Which is stupid (With all due respect). TybenFree (talk) 16:37, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I removed your source because you didn't prove its reliability. TybenFree (talk) 12:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

There is no doubt that there was an unfortunate "conflict" between the Emir Abdelkader and sultan Abd ar-Rahman of Morocco Since you're not disagreeing with this fact, there is no reason for you to remove it. M.Bitton (talk) 12:47, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

No it's not that simple, the enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend (I wouldn't call Abdelkader and Abderrahmane as enemies though). So of course I don't agree with adding Morocco on the French side. You should prove the reliability of the source or/and bring reliable sources that directly suggest Morocco supported the French conquest. TybenFree (talk) 13:30, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton What do you mean by "sourced"? Is it from your garbage source? Sorry if I sounded mean, but not responding to my comment and reverting my compromise edit made me nervous. Which source exactly claims that Morocco "supported" France in this conquest? Tyben^Welcome 23:52, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

It's a known fact: Morocco (or the Moroccan monarchy to be precise) went from reluctantly supporting Abdelkader to actively fighting him after agreeing with the French.

I wouldn't call Abdelkader and Abderrahmane as enemies what are you talking about? Do you realize that they went to war against one another? What do you think that makes them? Friends??

 Question: is this your first account on this project or did you use another one before? M.Bitton (talk) 23:47, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

April 2024

The claim that France owes a debt to Algiers is totally false! is that some kind of joke? M.Bitton (talk) 21:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Bernard Lugan, a famous french historian and great specialist about Africa refuted this thesis, and also indicated the real reasons for the French conquest of Algiers. He wrote several books about that storical fact. 37.170.219.219 (talk) 21:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Bernard Lugan's wiki page speaks for itself; and besides, he cannot contradict the facts. M.Bitton (talk) 22:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)