Talk:French literature/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Generalities
"The French have always...". I don't have time now to rewrite this now, but, seriously, I was told in highschool that you NEVER write serious text by saying such broad and easily contradicted generalities. David.Monniaux 23:42, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Most of this article comes from the Catholic Encyclopedia, which explains the very authoritative tone (ergo, the comment above) and was written in 1913. It needs expansion and to be udgraded to modern standards.
- I wondered what the source of the introduction was; now that mystery is solved. I've made a number of minor additions to it. I realize that ethnic stereotypes are unfashionable, but I suspect that at least in broad outline, the assessment given in the introduction is a widely held and fairly "standard" viewpoint. Smerdis of Tlön 16:29, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I feel that it is my obligation to refute your spurious claim that the source of this article is the Catholic Encyclopedia. It is I who entered the article originally. The basis of the article is from the introduction to the section on French Literature in an anthology of World Literature published in Great Britain in 1936. I then added to it from my research into the subject, along with translations from the works of Lagarde & Michard, an omnipresent literary manual used in French lycées to prepare students for the Baccalauréat, following the standards of the National Programme. You will note, in fact, that I have removed your reference to the Catholic Encyclopedia in the article, itself. If you should feel that it be necessary to cite the sources of the article, I shall certainly be willing to insert these particular citations. 12 Jun 2004
A very good article, though I have similiar reservations as those above. And also - where are Du Bellay, Rimbaud, Apollinaire, Jacob, ...? 'French prose with its clearness, rapidity, and grace seems superior to French poetry'. Well, yes, it would seem so if you drop several of the greatest poets.
I made some updates to my original edit of this article last year. Most importantly, I updated the modern sections, adding one about the End of the Century. It was translated from French wikipedia. --11 Aug 05.
Need for major edit
There is so much on this page that is wrong or laughable. Pronouncements like "Saint Beuve is the greatest of all French literary critics" (what would Proust say? what about Sartre? Barthes?) or 'Rabelais writes formless works in the manner of fiction" (what does this mean?!) or "French can be regarded as a modern form of Latin" (!) are unworthy of the wiki. The introductory paragraph is full of stereotypes that border on insulting. The last time I heard the terms "mixed origin", "strains" and "composition" -- "the French people are of mixed origin, having Celtic and Germanic as well as Roman strains in their composition" -- it was in connection with racial theories from the 1930s. A similar tone is unfortunately also found in almost any lit or art article that uses material from the 1911 encyclopedia.
How can we get these pages to be well written and accurate? At the very least, the introduction section to this article needs to be rewritten, but I also think that each century needs a thorough discussion on its own subpage, each page linked with the template. Template:French literature (I encourage people to check out the Lit site on the French wiki [fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littérature].) I have started these pages and I hope no one takes it the wrong way -- NYArtsnWords 07:55, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
- I have removed the intro section, but place it here in case someone wants to try to rework it. NYArtsnWords 19:07, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
- Although the French people are of mixed origin, having Celtic and Germanic as well as Roman strains in their composition, it is the Roman that has counted most. The French language itself may be regarded as a modern form of Latin. The Latin genius, as it has often been called, has seemed to hover over the development of the French culture and determine its destinies. It has bestowed upon the French people their love of order, clarity and reasonableness, their instinctive avoidance of extremes--the very qualities which are most conspicuous in their literature. In all artistic matters the French are essentially conservative, despite the fact that they have often been initiators of new movements.
- The French have always taken ideas and aesthetic matters seriously. For that reason and because of its long and illustrious history and its influence on other literatures, French literature occupies, as it were, a central position.
- The French have sometimes characterized themselves as possessing the esprit gaulois -- the Gallic spirit, meaning by that a light-hearted gaiety, a tendency to mock, and a refusal to take life or men too seriously. This Gallic spirit can indeed be detected all through French literature. Nevertheless, there is a fundamental earnestness in the French outlook which foreigners have too frequently been prone to overlook. As a matter of fact, most of the great French writers do not markedly display this so-called Gallic spirit.
- To most foreigners, especially those of English speech, French prose with its clearness, rapidity, and grace seems superior to French poetry. The French themselves would dissent vigorously from such a judgment. Their poetry, they claim, has cadences which the outsider cannot sufficiently detect; it has all the delicacy for which its sister, French prose, is so justly renowned; and, if the poetry seems to the foreigner to be rhetorical, that is in accordance with French tradition and is acceptable to French taste.
Alright, well since the old version of this article was attacked on all sides since I first put it up over a year ago, I shall try to make improvements to the lacking sections. I think the new format and wording is quite nice, albeit inadequate. The list of literary movements is incomplete as well as the descriptions of historical periods. I shall consult Lagard & Michard in order to update our French Literature article in the coming days.
Before modifying the French literature main page or the template Template:French literature, please keep in mind that there has been EXTENSIVE ADDITIONS and CHANGES on the subpages Medieval French literature, French Renaissance literature, French literature of the 17th century.
Also: PLEASE SIGN YOUR COMMENTS ON THE TALK PAGE (using four tildes). It would also help if you logged in with a user name rather than an anonymous user number.
Thanks NYArtsnWords 03:16, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear all,
I fixed a few typographical errors in the new article's introductory page.
I have created a username, a gesture that I hope will satisfy you.
A bientôt tigrou36 10:58, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I deleted "In contrast to Americans"...Literature is important to the French. Although the point that popular French television discusses literature, while American television does not is valid, the statement has an implied value judgement and violates NPOV.
about removal and insertion of Samuel Beckett
I don't think that Samuel Beckett should be included in the list of Nobel Prize Winners because he wasn't a French citizen, even though he wrote in French. Mostyn 13:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I decided to reinsert Samuel Beckett because while he was Irish, we wrote in French and then translated his work into English. The question is, what constitutes French literature? Must it be written by someone of French nationality, or just in the French language, or some other criteria? Consider the poet José Maria de Heredia, who was born in Cuba, or the author Marguerite Duras, who was born in Indochina; both of them are considered to have written French literature. I've noticed that Beckett is often removed from this article and then later added again, which is why I decided to bring this up. --Kyoko 01:21, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Latin
Almost all of France's older literature was written in Latin. Why isn't this mentioned in the article? Aaker 16:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
- Your comment is fair, I think. It should be mentioned indeed, and feel free to edit. But the matter is quite complex when you come to think about it and maybe contributors (I for one) are afraid that any generalization might be challenged or easy to deny : until when was Latin proeminent ? to what portion ? in what genres ? One should also balance every statistics or analysis on the subject with those concerning the use of other languages in literature in France. See for instance the case of Normandy, in that list on the Fr. WP. Authors from Normandy listed by language in their works. Best, --ટ 09:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Rename
This article should be renamed "French language literature" to distinguish it from the literature of France which is not all in French anyway.-MacRùsgail (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. Totally pointless. MacRusgail doesn't seem to understand that "French" stands for language, not country, ethnicity or political body. Beaumain (talk) 17:08, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
audiobooks
A huge collection, all free: http://www.litteratureaudio.com/ 108.18.136.147 (talk) 22:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
External links modified
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Nobel Prize List
The list as it stands is slightly problematic as the authors who are included don't meet the pages stated definition of what French Literature is. The page specifically states for instance that French language writers who are from countries which are not France, and who do not live in France are francophone authors, with a redirect to that page:
"Literature written in the French language, by citizens of other nations such as Belgium, Switzerland, Canada, Senegal, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, etc. is referred to as Francophone literature."
The nobel prize list then specifically mentions Maurice Maeterlinck who was a Belgian author who wrote in french, as per the pages definition he would be a francophone author not a french author. The page's definition also specifically defines french literature as:
"generally speaking, literature written in the French language, particularly by citizens of France; it may also refer to literature written by people living in France who speak traditional languages of France other than French."
Another entry on the list Gao Xingjian wrote in Chinese, Chinese is of course neither French nor a "traditional language" of France. So he doesn't really make sense on the list either, since the definition offers a two pronged test the latter or which clearly fails.
Then of course there's Samuel Beckett, he was not French, and while he lived in France it seems he would fall more under the francophone umbrella. Apparently the page is touchy with him, so I propose that Gao Xingjian and Maurice Maeterlinck both be deleted from the list since as per the page definition of French Literature they don't constitute French literature. 179.12.158.42 (talk) 02:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
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