Talk:French mother sauces

Is the French Wikipedia article wrong then?

The French article on sauces doesn't put Hollandaise in the list of mother sauces. So are the French wrong here, or is there a real possibility that the English translation is just wrong - and hence we should use the Original Source as leading. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauce --94.157.97.198 (talk) 14:24, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

According to the original author of this Wikipedia article, Frenchguycooking (Frenchguycooking (talk · contribs) (12 December 2020). "I HAD to Rewrite Wikipedia's Sauce Article (Series Finale) on YouTube". Mother Sauces. French guy cooking. Alex – via YouTube. {{cite episode}}: |author= has generic name (help); External link in |title= (help); no-break space character in |author= at position 85 (help)), it is a liberty taken by the translator into English, so this would be a contribution by the translator of the book for the English world, and not something from the French cooking world as it existed in France, but from the English adaptation of French cookery. So... it is a mother sauce in the English speaking world for French adapted cuisine, but it is not a mother sauce for French cooking in France. Thus Anglicized French cooking would have hollandaise and Gaullic French cooking would have mayonnaise -- 67.70.26.89 (talk) 21:10, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

That is his guess. No reliable source agrees with him. Multiple secondary sources, cited in the article, state which sauces are considered mother sauces. --hippo43 (talk) 22:51, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I mean, it's an article on French Mother Sauces, it would seem preferable to defer to French sources over English ones in this case, while the main Sauces article might be allowed reflect the English culinary perspective on sauces. It seems improper to define French cooking, historical or modern, by an English/American interpretation of the subject. More importantly, Escoffier absolutely lists out the 4 mother sauces, you can see it on Page 3 of the 1921 4th Edition of the book: https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/wcy1jI7uQy4C?hl=en&gbpv=1 and the 3rd Edition: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k96923116/f31.item.texteImage --Omnitographer (talk) 23:17, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. Secondary sources say what are considered mother sauces. Escoffier lists 4 sauces de base in his French book, as well as others. All of this is in the article. If anyone finds other sources, French or English, which say that Escoffier had 4 mother sauces, or 9, or whatever, we would include that. --hippo43 (talk) 23:30, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes the other page is also wrong. All of these modern books derive from Escoffier’s book. Escoffier does not list Hollandaise as a mother sauce, though he does list Mayonnaise as one. Unfortunately though, in translating it to English, either willfully or accidentally, the translator moved Hollandaise to the Mother Sauce section and did not include Escoffier’s disclaimer that Mayo was a Mother sauce.

So the original text backs up what everyone is saying. That is your Original source for the Wikipedia page. You can look at any online sources you want, but you won’t be correct. The once version of it near Paris is protected in a library. There are no online copies of it. The original author of this article went to actually read that early edition, which indeed showed that Hollandaise is not a mother sauce, but Mayonnaise is. Most of the world that didn’t know French, used the English translation and incorrectly assumed Hollandaise was a mother sauce. That is a primary source. Please stop removing the edits, Hippo. TooSolidFlesh (talk) 23:20, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree in principle, and wish that Escoffier's original list would be used unaltered, but it's not Wikipedia's job to declare what is "correct". We don't try to right great wrongs; if most modern sources consider X, Y, and Z to be mother sauces, then they are the most common list of mother sauces, even if W was often considered a mother sauce historically. Hopefully you can imagine why we do this, and the link above gives a reasonably good explanation. Note that what Frenchguycooking originally wrote didn't state flat out what mother sauces were. I'd like to see modern books on French gastronomy, though, especially in French, that provide a list of mother sauces, so that we could get a better picture of the scale of the problem. It's weird to me that a single unfaithful English translation would change not only English conceptions of mother sauces, but French.

The source is an excellent text, not for declaring what truly are mother sauces, but for what Escoffier classified as mother sauces. To this end, and given the disagreement between the original text and the translation which apparently influenced everyone, I think it should be given more weight in the lead. Something like The original French editions of Le guide culinaire did not list Hollandaise as a mother sauce, nor did the 1910 German translation. These sources also separately list mayonnaise—cold egg yolks beaten with oil and vinegar—as a mother sauce; this classification was not included in the English translation. Some modern sources include mayonnaise with hollandaise in the list of mother sauces.

Anyway, we're all here to improve the article—including Hippo. Wish I could contribute more time and research but I'm a bit busy these days. Cheers, Ovinus (talk) 16:19, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I understand both sides here, but there will never be a way for this mistake to be rectified as of right now since as it has been said there is literally only one physical copy that shows this historical mistake and no online versions will ever show up anytime soon. But the people at Wikipedia must understand, there is definite undeniable proof that this article is wrong and yet we have to be ok with it. Billions upon billions of people come here to search for information on every type of subject available and we have to be ok with false info. So it's ok to post incorrect information that has historically affected us and not care? It just amazes me. But I understand you have to stay neutral there are rules and procedures to this. It's just....it's frustrating, the proof is there, it's been shown, but it can't be changed, not right now at least. I do thank the editors for compromising and everything. I do wonder though if it were a more serious subject would it add more weight to actually fixing the historical inaccuracy? I guess ignorance is bliss right? Anyways I got that off my chest. I have no hate for the people and editors who work hard to give these sources and information on things we look up, it just sucks the way things end up sometimes. Bl9738 (talk) 11:10, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

When we find an inconsistency like this in a primary sources we would prefer another source. Hollandaise is a base sauce. There are similar base sauces in other systems like Careme's egg yolk and lemon juice. The concept of using egg yolks in sauce did not originate with these authors either. I'm just not seeing what mistake or historical inaccuracy needs to be corrected here. It's just different books using different terminology for the same sauce, very common for food history articles.Spudlace (talk) 20:21, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

modern lists

Wikipedia is about current truth not past truth. The history section on this page has been worked on very well.

Modern Scholarly sources include mayonnaise in with hollandaise in their lists:

"In Escoffier׳s system, the mother sauces were; béchamel, espagnole, velouté, hollandaise (and mayonnaise) and tomato sauce (Peterson, 2008)."

"Escoffier continued to simplify sauce-making methods by eliminating many of the essences and fumets used by Caréme and by affirming the importance of four mother sauces—espagnole, velouté, béchamel, and tomato (an addition since Caréme)—and to a lesser degree, hollandaise and mayonnaise." edit .... added source since @Hippo43: insists on deleted useful reference material and it could be useful in a larger article Rdc000 (talk)

Both hollandaise and mayonnaise should be included — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.52.198.195 (talk) 15:41, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that Escoffier's system was actually béchamel, espagnole, velouté, reduced veal stock, and tomato sauce. Replacing reduced veal stock with hollandaise was William Heinemann's system, not Escoffier's. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 17:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

William Heinemann is a publishing company not a person. The translator of the work is unknown as far as I know. It is better to think of it as a revised edition rather than a translation — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rdc000 (talk • contribs) 19:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

References

,,

A more modern list is published in "The New LaRousse Gastronomique: The Encyclopedia of Food, Wine and Cookery" by Prosper Montagné, Paris, 1960, English translation 1977, Crown Publishers, New York. It does away with the traditional "mother sauces" and puts sauces in five categories: White, Brown, Warm Emulsified, Cold Emulsified, and Sweet. Whether there are 4 or 5 mother sauces does not matter, they all have their places in this classification. I think the article should include this reference and if someone can make a wiki-table as an illustration that would be helpful. Such a table would also be useful for the original "mother sauces" and the sauces derived from them. Wastrel Way (talk) Eric

Mayonnaise/Hollandaise

Isn't it worth including both in the top section? With Hollandaise being referred to being a mother sauce in modern times and Mayonnaise being part of the original piece of work from Auguste (even if in the wrong section). — Preceding unsigned comment added by LKPridgeon (talk • contribs) 01:17, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

As in surely there must be a compromise that would satisfy all parties, currently whilst the short description isn't technically wrong from a modern perspective from a historical perspective it would be as a result of the translation error of Auguste Escoffier's work as pointed out by Frenchguycooking. Their original wording including a list of more faithful selection below that of the modern list seems to work better than what's currently documented LKPridgeon (talk) 01:44, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

You're assuming there was a translation error, but there is no evidence for that. Escoffier's English version clearly lists Espagnole, Velouté, Béchamel, Tomato and Hollandaise in both the contents and in the text. Modern sources consistently include the same five.

If there are any reliable sources which support Frenchguycooking's original research and speculation, they would be useful. --hippo43 (talk) 02:43, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Agree that we should wait for reliable, published sources to pick up on this and confirm that it's a translation error, or it would be sort of righting great wrongs. I think it should be in the lead, though, as part of a historical summary of the origins of the de facto list of mother sauces. Escoffier's original list differs from the modern list, and mentioning that isn't undue weight. Ovinus (talk) 04:02, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

There's no evidence that this is any kind of error. Frenchguycooking makes out in his video that he has discovered something, but he hasn't. The list is different in 2 of Escoffier's books. So what? That does't prove anything. Have I missed something?

The lead has the typical modern list, explains where it came from, and the body of the article explains different versions. All of the chefs' lists differ from the modern 5, except Escoffier's English book. I think the article reflects that. --hippo43 (talk) 04:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Faithful transcription is not OR and since the translation differs materially from the original, I'd argue that the original would be the preferred source in this case, unless there's sources that support the idea that Escoffier was aware of the changes. If not, I don't think it's correct to attribute the list of 5 sauces to Escoffier directly.

However, given the prevalence of the list of 5, I agree that's the correct list for the lead. Pealamown (talk) 04:28, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not saying transcription is OR. But deciding that there was an error in translation, without any evidence for it, is obvious OR. There is no evidence that Escoffier was unaware of what was in his own book. There is no reason to try to guess or assume why they are different.

The English text has Hollandaise both in the contents and in the chapter. I find it hard to believe that is an accident or a mistake, but I don't know. Perhaps Escoffier wanted to include it because he thought English speakers liked Hollandaise, or he changed his mind and changed it back, or his wife told him it should be in there, or there is an error in later French editions and they forgot to keep Hollandaise in there, or a translator thought "fuck it, I love Hollandaise so I'm putting it in". Who knows.

None of these sources say "these 4/5/6 sauces are the definitive mother sauces." Some of them don't even say "mother sauces" at all. The list that is in the English version just matches the modern list, that's all the lead needs to say. --hippo43 (talk) 04:41, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

"The list that is in the English version just matches the modern list"-- I believe it's the other way around. Icil34 (talk) 00:54, 20 January 2021 (UTC)Icil34

We should mention the difference between the translation and the original that Frenchguycooking discovered, but not call it a translation error. I agree with Pealamown that the French source should be given weight here, because that's what Escoffier himself wrote. I doubt Escoffier knew English, so the original is a more reliable source to what he considered mother sauces than the translation. We should say that Escoffier's original included mayonnaise, while the translation does not, and agrees with the modern list.

92.34.19.37 (talk) 22:35, 16 December 2020 (UTC)"We should say that Escoffier's original included mayonnaise, while the translation does not, and agrees with the modern list." So why don't you? The current text does not say anything like it.

Done. Ovinus (talk) 00:59, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Hopefully, further research can track down the modern list's history and why it settled on a version without mayonnaise, and ideally we'd find more sources by Escoffier which clarify what he considered the mother sauces.

(In terms of my own original research, I agree that this probably isn't a translation error as Frenchguycooking concludes. Plus, why would the English translation have more importance than the original French? I'd expect the latter to have greater reach. But the difference is worth mentioning.) Ovinus (talk) 04:51, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I accept that the modern definition of mother sauces is as published but I don't think you can link that back to Escoffier given that Hollandaise only is put in the base list in that second edition. If this was definitive why isn't it the same as the 3rd and 4th edition (which also has a "definitive" English translation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spreetay (talk • contribs) 05:39, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I think some of these comments are looking at this from the wrong angle. There is no definitive list. None of Escoffier's books, as far as I can see, say "these are the 5 mother sauces..." And Escoffier's original French did not specifically include mayonnaise, that's not quite what he wrote. The article already includes what he said.

But there is a common modern group, supported by a lot of more modern sources, and it appears in Escoffier's English work, so the lead should reflect that. --hippo43 (talk) 05:11, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I see what you mean; Escoffier never enumerated the five sauces in a single list. Mayonnaise he writes is a mother sauce, but not in the same context as the other four, so it would be inaccurate to say that he included mayonnaise in his original list. Thanks for explaining! I think the current lead is a good compromise of sorts.

This talk page is probably getting a lot of traffic from his viewers, so I might write a quick summary for them later today. Ovinus (talk) 17:18, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

relatedL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMXvAjH0Nco — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:C22:CC0B:8B00:5045:BC2B:F4A4:E4FB (talk) 20:35, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Tracing the evolution of the list - Mastering the Art of French Cooking (1964)

Mastering The Art of French Cooking, by Simone Beck, Louisette Bertholle, and Julia Childs, is one of the more significant contributions to the historical American interpretation of French cooking, and provides a snapshot of the popular English-language understanding. In the introduction to this section, they write "Thus as soon as you have put into practice the basic formulas for the few mother sauces, you are equipped to command the whole towering edifice.". Page 55 of the 1964 edition of Volume 1 (though the first edition was in 1961, this is what I have access to) lists their categorization:

The French Family of Sauces

White Sauces

These stem from the two cousins, béchamel and velouté. Both use a flour and butter roux as thickening agent. Béchamel is moistened with milk, velouté with white stock made from poultry, veal, or fish.

Brown Sauces

For the brown sauces, the butter and flour roux is cooked slowly until it turns a nut brown. Then a brown stock is added.

Tomato Sauce

Egg Yolk and Butter Sauces

Hollandaise is the mother of this family.

Egg Yolk and Oil Sauces

These are all variations of mayonnaise.

Oil and Vinegar Sauces

Vinaigrette-French dressing-heads this family.

Flavored Butters

These include the hot butter sauces, and butters creamed with various herbs, seasonings, or purees.

74.96.97.88 (talk) 13:00, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

74.96.97.88: That's really interesting! So in this classification, both hollandaise and mayonnaise are included, while the rest lines up except this class of "flavored butters", though that would be like saying butter is a mother sauce.... Hopefully we can track down the history further. Ovinus (talk) 17:27, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Tracing the Evolution of the List - Escoffiere's Ma Cuisine (1934)

https://archive.org/details/AugusteEscoffierMaCuisine1934/

Section Headings

The section headings are a bit of a mess, as if the editor couldn't decide on an epistemic hierarchy to transfer into typographic formatting.

Quoted text (public domain, so no worries)

PRINCIPAUX FONDS DE CUISINE PREPARATION DES JUS OU FONDS BRUNS FONDS BLANC SIMPLE FONDS DE VOLAILLE FONDS OU JUS DE BEAU BRUN JUS DE VEAU LIE A l'ARROW-ROOT GLACE DE VIANDE LES ROUX Roux brun. Roux blond. GRANDES SAUCES DE BASE SACES DE BASE Sauce brune, dise << sauce espagnole >> SAUCE DEMI-GLACE VELOUTE SIMPLE SAUCE BLONDE OU SAUCE PARISIENNE SAUCE SUPREME SAUCE BECHAMEL SAUCE TOMATE PETITES SAUCES BRUNES COMPOSEES Sauce bigarade ou orange pour caneton roti. Sauce bordelaise. Sauce bourguignonne. Sauce bretonne. Sauce aux cerises. Sauce chasseur. Sauce chaud-froid brune Sauce chevreuil. Sauce diable. Sauce grand veneur. Sauce italienne. Sauce moelle. Sauce perigueux. Sauce piquante. Sauce poivrade ordinaire. PETITES SAUCES BLANCHES COMPOSEES Sauce aurore. Autre maniere de preparer lea sauce aurore. Sauce bearnaise. Sauce bernaise tomatee, dite << sauce Choron >>. Sauce bernaise a la glace de viande, dite << sauce Valois >>. Sauce au beurre. Sauce aux capres. Sauce cardinal. Sauce chaud-froid blanch ordinaire. Sauce chaud-froid aurore. Sauce crevettes. Sauce curry a la creme. Sauce au paprika rose, ou << Sauce aurore >>. Sauce diplomate, ou << sauce riche >>. Sauce groseilles, dites << groseilles a maquereau >>. Sauce hollandaise. Sauce aux huitres. Sauce ivoire. Sauce Joinville. Sauce Mornay. Sauce mousseline. Sauce moutarde. Sauce normande. Sauce smitane (creme aigre). Sauce ou puree Soubise. Sauce Soubise tomatee. Sauce venitienne. Sauce Vilieroy. Sauce Villeroy Tomatee. Sauce vin blanc. SAUCES ANGLAISES CHAUDES Sauce aux airelles (cranberries-sauce). Sauce au beurre a l'anglaise (butter-sauce). Ssuce aux capres (capers-sauce). Sauce au celeri (celery-sauce). Sauce creme a l'anglaise (cream-sauce). Sauce aux oeufs a l'anglaise (eggs-sauce). Sauce au pain (bread-sauce). Sauce persil (parsley-sauce). Sauce aux pommes (apple-sauce). Sauce reforme (reform-sauce). Sauce sauge et oignons (sage-and-onions-sauce). Sauce Yorkshire. SAUCES FROIDES Sauce mayonnaise Sauces mayonaises diverses. Sauce Chantilly. Sauce raifort aux noix fraiches. Sauce ravigote ou Vinaigrette. Sauce remoulade. Sauce suedoise. Sauce tartare. Sauce verte. SAUCES ANGLAISES FROIDES Sauce Cumberland (Cumberland-sauce). Sauce menthe (mint-sauce). Sauce raifort (raifort-sauce).

Excerpt from "GRAND SAUCES DU BASE" section

French

Quoted text

Je n'entrerai pas ici dans les détails que la préparation des sauces exige dans une grande cuisine de restaurant et hôtel, ce serait superflu. Le but de cet ouvrage, au contraire, est de simplifier les formules, de les rendre aussi claires que possible, de les mettre à la portée de tous et d'en faciliter l'exécution aux ménagères. Nous avons en Cuisine trois sauces fondamentales qui sont : 1° La Sauce dite « Espagnole » qui, en fait, n'est qu'un jus brun lié par un roux également brun, composé de beurre et farine par parties à peu près égales. 2° Le « Velouté » qui ne diffère de l'Espagnole que par le jus dé- nommé fonds blanc, lié avec un roux tenu aussi blanc que possible. Ces jus bruns et blancs sont tirés des viandes dont les sucs sont neutres de goût ; le veau et le bœuf en constituent les premiers éléments, puis la volaille. Les sauces préparées avec ces jus ou fonds de cuisine s'adaptent à diverses préparations de poisson, à l'accommodation des viandes en général, des volailles, des gibiers, etc. Leur adjonction ne peut qu'en rehausser la saveur. 3° La sauce « Béchamel ». Cette sauce, au point de vue économique, peut être considérée comme la Reine des Sauces, elle se prête à de multipies et délicieuses préparations et s'harmonise aussi bien avec les œufs, le poisson, les viandes, qu'avec la volaille, les divers gibiers et les légumes; de plus sa préparation facile demande peu de temps. Nous avons ensuite la sauce Tomate qui, elle aussi, joue un rôle important dans la Cuisine Moderne. Puis, la Glace de Viande qu'on n'apprécie pas toujours à sa valeur et qui, cependant, lorsqu'elle est soigneusement traitée, peut, dans bien des cas, être de la plus grande utilité. Dans les grandes cuisines de restaurants et hôtels, ces sauces fonda- mentales sont préparées tous les matins, et ce n'est que par ce moyen qu'on arrive à faire un service rapide dans les conditions les meilleures. Les sauces-mères permettent de préparer à la minute toutes les petites sauces composées dont on trouvera plus loin les formules.

Google Translate

Machine translation of above

The preparation of sauces requires a lot of care. We should'nt not, in fact, forget that it is through the refinement brought to our sauces that French Cuisine enjoys world supremacy. We have in the kitchen three fundamental sauces which are: 1 ° The so-called "Spanish" Sauce which, in fact, is just a brown juice bound by a roux also brown, composed of butter and flour in parts roughly equal. 2 ° The "Velouté" which differs from the Spanish only by the juice named white background, linked with a red, kept as white as possible. These brown and white juices are obtained from meats whose juices are neutral in taste; veal and beef are the first elements, then the poultry. The sauces prepared with these juices or cooking bases are suitable for various fish preparations, suitable for meat in general, poultry, game, etc. Their addition can only enhance flavor. 3 ° The “Béchamel” sauce. This sauce, from an economic point of view, can be considered the Queen of Sauces, it lends itself to multi-faceted and delicious preparations and harmonizes equally well with eggs, fish, meat, with poultry, various game and the vegetables; moreover, its easy preparation requires little time. Then we have the Tomato sauce which also plays a role important in the Modern Kitchen. Then, the Meat Ice that we don't always appreciate at its value and which, however, when carefully treated, may, in well of the cases, to be of the greatest help. In the large kitchens of restaurants and hotels, these basic sauces are prepared every morning, and only by this means that we can provide fast service under the best conditions. The mother sauces make it possible to prepare every minute mixed sauces, the formulas of which will be found below.

Excerpt from the opening to the section "Sauce mayonnaise."

Original

La plupart des sauces froides composées dérivent de la Mayonnaise qui, pour cette raison, est considérée comme une sauce-mère au même titre que l'Espagnole et le Velouté,

Google Translate

Most mixed cold sauces derive from Mayonnaise which, for this reason, is considered a mother sauce to the same as the Spanish and the Velouté,

74.96.97.88 (talk) 05:11, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

So in this 1934 book, he uses a similar classification as his 1907 book, with the four sauces plus the "Glace de Viande" (meat glaze); the latter replaces the "Jus de veau lié" sauce. He still mentions mayonnaise as a mother sauce, and in a separate list. I can't make heads or tails of the first section though... really wish I knew French so I could help more.

The sauce plot thickens. We now have three sources attributed to Escoffier—two in French and a translation in German—which do not include Hollandaise. I'm ever curious why the English translation won out in all languages, and this gives further credence to the idea that it's the editors to blame. Hopefully we can look for English and French sources about mother sauces in the interim to track the evolution. Awesome work tracking this down! Ovinus (talk) 08:58, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I collapsed the source text just to make the page a bit less tall; hope that's okay. Ovinus (talk) 09:05, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

GLACE, FONDS, and JUS are all stock / broth / brown liquid type things, if that helps. Meat protein & bone collagen is the key component, small qty of vegetables added to season. You can try taking the full text from the link and plug it in paragraph by paragraph into Google Translate. - 74.96.97.88 (talk) 03:09, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Peterson

@Hippo43 and Rdc000: We're approaching the three-revert rule here. (Rdc, that means people shouldn't revert each other more than three times, as that will result in a temporary block.) Peterson's source does seem important: he says Escoffier "affirm[ed] the importance of four mother sauces... and to a lesser extent, mayonnaise and hollandaise." "Lesser extent" doesn't mean "lesser mother sauces", but I think we could include something like "Escoffier considered these four sauces important, along with mayonnaise and hollandaise to a lesser extent." It agrees with his seminal works, too. Ovinus (talk) 18:59, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Technically the source says only 4 sauces are mother sauces at all. Calling them lesser mother sauces is throwing a bone to the larger article while also showing that mayonnaise was also important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rdc000 (talk • contribs) 19:05, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

The source is slightly ambiguous, maybe deliberately so, but "lesser mother sauces" is a bit confusing. Also in case you didn't know, you should generally sign your talk page messages with four tildes (~~~~). Cheers, Ovinus (talk) 19:10, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

OK I took a stab at it, but I think its super confusing to refer to the source's four mother sauces in an article about 5 mother sauces Rdc000 (talk) 19:25, 13 December 2020 (UTC)rdc

Ovinus, you're right.

Calling them lesser mother sauces, when the source doesn't say that, is poor scholarship. "Throwing a bone" to the larger article is a terrible idea - trying to squeeze a source to fit a narrative is not cool. Just go with what the sources say, no need to try to explain everything or change what they say.

There are already several other secondary sources in the lead which mention Escoffier's influence. I will try to add them to the Peterson source and write a short summary of what they say.

FWIW, I think all the recent work that has been done on the article - lists and quotes and trying to define who said what is a mother sauce - has got us away from making a good article about these sauces themselves and their importance. I will try to re-structure a bit when I have time. --hippo43 (talk) 19:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Restructuring is one thing. Wholescale deletion of useful references and important clarifications is another. I have adjusted the language to fit the source's language. That section does have an awkward transition but all the sources in that paragraph are interesting and useful and should be retained. Yes I will admit that this is in part that some of that text is the OP's, but also that it is useful. Rdc000 (talk) 19:46, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2020

Change

"The English edition also included a selection of "English Sauces" in its chapter on small sauces,[22] and it omitted the comments from the French edition that stated he considered mayonnaise to be a sort of mother sauce."

to

"The English edition also included a selection of "English Sauces" in its chapter on small sauces,[22] and it omitted the comments from the French edition that stated Escoffier considered mayonnaise to be a sort of mother sauce." Uhotuo (talk) 00:22, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Done. Lightbluerain❄ (Talk | contribs) 10:20, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Le guide culinaire (1903)

The original book can be read for free on Google Books. Citations here are to the 1912 edition, rather than the true original, so we should corroborate with this source too when we say "original French editions". Ovinus (talk) 00:58, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

A translation of the original can be found here: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000061786981&view=1up&seq=42 Escoffier, A. (Auguste). (19791921). Le guide culinaire =: The complete guide to the art of modern cookery : the first complete translation into English. 1st American ed. New York: Mayflower Books. Rdc000 (talk)

Version vs Edition vs Adaptation

I take issue with the usage of the word "edition" to describe Escoffier's 1907 english language book "A Guide to Modern Cookery"

La Guide Culinaire had 4 editions, a 1903, 1907, 1911, and 1921 first through fourth editions.

The 1907 English language book is clearly an adaptation, an abridgement, a version, not a true edition as that word is used to describe published works.

Adaptation, while possibly more accurate, may be a loaded a word in the context of this article. I believe that this article should use the word "version" rather than "edition" to describe the 1907 work.

I look forward to any input other editors may have before making this change.

Rdc000 (talk)

Removals by Hippo43

Today, I noticed a very large removal where Hippo43 took out over sixteen thousand bytes of article content (and numerous references), which I reverted; they reverted the removal, and recommended the talk page. Previous sections on this talk page, in which Hippo43 seems to have participated extensively, have held extended discussion on whether content should be kept in this article, removed, et cetera. In general, there does not seem to be an overwhelming or final consensus either way. They have subsequently made a large number of removals; while some of these are improvements to the article, I think that many of them are unjustified. Rather than simply engage in an edit war, however, I will outline my objections to the edits:

• "OR". the sentence in question was "The list can soundly be narrowed down to a selection of 6 sauces to avoid obvious redundancies", which was directly cited to a written in French.

Does the French source narrow down the selection, or the editor who wrote this? // Hippo43 (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "rm OR". A couple of sentence fragments in this section seem to be drawing a conclusion from sources; however, rather than being rephrased, the entire passage relating to the translation of the book has been removed, along with a reference to the book. Why?

"One translation in particular could be at the origin of this dilemma" is original research. There is no dilemma mentioned in any sources.

"This cookbook is not presented as an original cookbook, but as a translation of Escoffier's culinary guide." This is original research, and is a repetition of a claim that the English version of the book is not to be trusted like the French version. Again, OR. // Hippo43 (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "rm OR, unsourced commentary". This edit retains sources, and removes some editorialized language; however, there are confusing removals. "this cookbook, Gouffé established an updated sauce classification and listed 12 “Mother” sauces (Gouffé used the terms “Grand” or “Mother” sauces interchangeably):" has been changed to "In this cookbook, Gouffé established an updated sauce classification and listed 12 "Mother" or "Grand"sauces". Why?

There is no source for the statement that Gouffe used the terms "interchangeably". OR

The statement "They all aim at bringing clarity and sense to how sauces should be made, and how they should be used." is OR

"Despite common held belief, there have not always been 5 mother sauces in French cuisine." is OR. Who says there is a "common held belief"? The rest of the article, very obviously and repeatedly,already makes it clear that there have been different lists. It's almost as if you haven't read the whole article.

"As a consequence, his sauce classification is considered by many the most important historical contribution to sauces in general." OR

"As with Gouffé's list, this can be narrowed down to a selection of 9 sauces to avoid obvious redundancies:" OR // Hippo43 (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "rm OR / opinion". This edit removes an entire section, with two sources cited, which do not appear to be unreliable sources. While the claim that hollandaise "feels a bit less legitimate to be considered a Mother sauce" is definitely an opinion, the claims that mayonnaise is a true emulsion, and that hollandaise is a warm emulsified suspension, certainly don't seem to be original research to me. I do not understand why they were removed.

"From a science point of view, Mayonnaise sauce can be considered as Mother sauce" is horseshit. The subsequent statement that it is a true emulsion is therefore irrelevant here. It is repeated elsewhere in the article explaining mayonnaise. Have you read the whole article?

The statement about Hollandaise being a "warm emulsified suspension" is true, but the sentence is OR and makes no sense. Being a warm emulsified suspension, therefore not a mother sauce, is a non sequitur. // Hippo43 (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "there is no "problem". This is OR and speculation". Another entire section is removed here; the claim seems to be quite thoroughly backed up by the sources (“Mayonnaise” has been replaced with “Hollandaise” sauce, without any mention or clarification from the translator himself). The use of the word "problem" is indeed impartial; replacing it with "discrepancy" could have resolved this. I do not understand why this section was removed.

Referring to "the problem" and later "without any mention or clarification from the translator himself" is speculation and OR. No published source mentions a discrepancy or a problem, or considers what the translator thought. Seeking a "possible origin of the problem" is all OR by the editor who added this. // Hippo43 (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "source does not say that. A source from 1833 cannot comment on the 20th century". This seems like a reference was placed in the wrong place, i.e. "The first Mother/Daughter sauce classifications date back from the 19th century" is the sourced statement. "The classification has been slightly amended in the early 20th century, but hasn't changed since then" is, indeed, not attributable to the source from 1833. A good solution here would be to move the citation to the part of the sentence it supports; deleting the entire sentence, and removing its source from the article altogether, is puzzling.

Did you find it puzzling before or after you checked the source? My edit summary was clear. The source does not say that. If you have read the source, and can point out where it says that the first classifications date from the 19th century, please let me know. Maybe I missed it. // Hippo43 (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "not in source. OR". The sentence being removed is Classifying sauces into either Mother or Daughter sauces has one purpose: to bring clarity and sense to how sauces are being made and how they should be used. The source in question says a good deal about the sauces and their classification: These basic sauces can be enjoyed as is, or used as a base for dozens — or even hundreds — of other sauces. The family tree of French sauces has many branches! Famous chef Marie-Antoine Carême codified the four original Mother Sauces in the early 1800s. His recipes for Velouté, Béchamel, Allemande, and Espagnole were vital to every French chef. About 100 years later, chef Auguste Escoffier reclassified Allemande as a “daughter sauce,” or variation, of velouté. He also added Sauce Tomat and Hollandaise to the mix, leaving us with the five mother sauces we still learn today. Read on to learn the basics of each mother sauce and some common uses for these important foundations of French cuisine! While it may be a bit of a stretch to say that the source directly supports that entire sentence, it does not make sense for this source to be removed, since it supports the immediately preceding sentence, In French cuisine, a "Mother" sauce, also known as a “Grand” or “Leading” sauce, is a sauce from which other sauces, often called “Daughter” sauces, are derived.

It's not a bit of a stretch. The source does not support the sentence at all. It simply does not say anything about why sauces are classified. The sentence in the article is pointless bullshit, and not sourced.

The part you quoted from the source is unremarkable, and already covered extensively in this article. // Hippo43 (talk) 03:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "unsourced opinion". This edit removes sentence consisting mostly of opinion, but inexplicably also removes a source (Carême 1833) that was supporting the sentence (In "The Art of French Cuisine in the 19th Century”, Carême mentioned that his versions of Allemande sauce and Béchamel sauce recipes both use the Velouté sauce recipe as a starting point).

It's not inexplicable. It's quite easily explained. The source absolutely was not supporting the sentence it referred to.

The sentence you quoted already mentions the work, and the sentence immediately following uses the same reference. What is the problem here? // Hippo43 (talk) 03:50, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "article is about Mother Sauces". This removal does not really make sense to me, since the article discusses the contrast between mother sauces and daughter sauces. There has, historically, been great overlap between the two.

It makes perfect sense, as it is excessive detail at this point, and undue weight on this chef's list. For each of the chefs covered, the mother/grand sauces have been mentioned. Petit sauces have been covered elsewhere in the article. // Hippo43 (talk) 03:50, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• " cl. rm OR commentary". Sure, why not.

• "rm OR". The sentence "No extra mention or specific introduction have been made by the author about this sauce." has been removed. This doesn't seem like a matter of opinion: did he mention the sauce or didn't he? It is pretty black-and-white.

In the context of this section/paragraph, of course it was OR. It is OR to comment on what a book does not say, when doing so only to make a point that no third party source does.

To state that Escoffier does not mention it in this book, and to omit that he mentions it in his English book, is fundamentally dishonest. This is an encyclopedia, not a place for this editor's pet theory. // Hippo43 (talk) 04:24, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "citing multiple sources and explaining why you think they are wrong is OR. The English edition of Escoffier's work should not just be dismissed by an editor in this way. The different editions are already explained above". This edit removes an entire section that explains the content of a reliable source (Escoffier 1907) while citing that source: it is not "original research" to read a book, and then cite the contents of that book to the book.

"However, a closer look at Escoffier's French cookbooks (not translations or adaptations) reveals that..." is opinion. Excluding the English version of Escoffier's work to try to make the point you want is dishonest and a disservice to the reader. The difference between the versions is already explained elsewhere in the article, but in a more NPOV way.

It is also original research to state that it "reveals that Hollandaise sauce never was considered a mother sauce". Who says it reveals this? It is quite clear from the sentence above - "Over the internet, Hollandaise sauce is widely regarded as a Mother Sauce" - that hollandaise is considered a mother sauce by many people. And, again, the English version of Escoffier's work shows that it was considered a mother sauce, at least by someone at some time. // Hippo43 (talk) 04:00, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "rm OR, unsourced commentary". The first sentence removed in this edit is obviously sourced to the several of Escoffier's publications referenced in the article. As for the second removal, sure, why not.

No, the statement that Escoffier 'always' considered mayonnaise a mother sauce is not sourced here at all. We have no idea what he considered a mother sauce at various times. He might have changed his mind numerous times before, between and after publishing his books, we just don't know. In particular, his English language book does not mention it as a mother sauce, so we have a source which directly contradicts this. // Hippo43 (talk) 03:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• "who says it's a special case?". Good edit.

• →‎Mayonnaise from a historical point of view. Good edit.

• →‎Mayonnaise. Good edit.

• "source does not say that. OR". From the source in question (Gouffé 1867), page 396: "J'ai cru qu'il était bon de désigner les sauces fondamentales, sous le titre de Sauces mères, pour bien spécifier le rôle essentiel qu'elles jouent dans la confection d'autres sauces en très-grand nombre, qui sont leurs dérivés, et qu'on a parfois désignées, assez improprement aussi, sous le nom de petites sauces, comme s'il y avait en réalité dans la cuisine des sauces grandes ou petites. La dénomination a été d'autant plus mal choisie que les sauces que l'on a appelées petites ou simples se trouvent être dans plus d'un cas beaucoup plus compliquées que les grandes; or, c'est principalement le contraire que leur dénomination semblerait annoncer" (in 1867 Escoffier had written no publications, as he was a 21-year-old apprentice cook in the French army). Again, it could be warranted to change this to "Gouffé claimed to have invented the term in an 1867 publication", but removing the entire source seems excessive.

Trying to use a source to show that Escoffier and Carême did not do something, when no one is saying they did, is OR. And, in any case, the source does not state who invented the term, or who didn't.

Did Gouffé claim to have invented the term?? Where are you getting that from in the sentence you quoted? His source clearly refers to petites and grandes sauces as already existing. He absolutely does not say that he came up with the phrase "mother sauce" before anyone else. // Hippo43 (talk) 03:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Hippo43: I think that, since consensus here does not seem to be forthcoming, we should open a request for comment. Thoughts? jp×g 02:25, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't care either way. Go for it if you think it will help. // Hippo43 (talk) 04:00, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@JPxG:, looking at all your objections, I get the impression you haven't looked at the whole article, or the sources being discussed, in great detail. Please bear in mind that the History section of the article has reached a pretty stable consensus, after a fair amount of discussion and work. The Expanded History section, being discussed here, only exists because it was merged in from History of French mother sauces in December. It was basically an earlier, worse version of the History section, just repeated in another article. Basically, these problems have already been worked through, and the History section here is what came out of it. Adding this section again in December has just restored the problem. Among others, @Spudlace: and @Thefringthing: have understood the same problem. // Hippo43 (talk) 04:46, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping // Hippo43. @JPxG:, I know it looks "well-referenced" when judged at the patroller's hurried pace. What you may not know is that this has been discussed previously. What we've had since, based on the editing history, is edit warring of disputed content into the article by ip editors. I don't consider it "well-referenced content" because it includes citations to blogspot for this type of content: "From a science point of view, Mayonnaise sauce can be considered as Mother sauce : It is a true emulsion". (Not all mother sauces are emulsions...) Then it goes on to argue Hollandaise is not a "true emulsion" and therefore not a "mother sauce" - what the citation says is it's not an "ordinary emulsion". But certainly, it is an emulsion, only made with butter, and not oil. Even wealthy families needed oil to light their lamps, once upon a time. Butter was plentiful. This may be why mayonnaise was left out of these early culinary compendiums - an oversight we certainly can't fix here on Wikipedia.

We don't block people for repeated disruption like this, leaving it up to volunteer editors to prevent damage to the article. Most of us are capable of doing original research but not adding it to the articles is a sticky rule. It may help to remind ourselves: "Is this the type of content I would expect to see in an Encyclopedia?" Spudlace (talk) 06:16, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

If there is not further discussion, I will remove the duplicate Expanded History section soon. Now that the obvious original research has been removed, there is almost nothing that is not included in the History section. // Hippo43 (talk) 19:30, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Veloute sauce

Explain 2409:4042:4D8B:B979:602F:B9A8:496F:51AD (talk) 09:57, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Velouté

This sauce is made with a blond roux NOT white 92.26.35.178 (talk) 23:18, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Citation workover

This article's citations were in a mess. Several of the citations were duplicated multiple times, so I combined them. Other citations had incorrect information (authors, titles, language). I added title translations whenever it was a French reference. I added a page number and a heading to one of the very-lengthy French sources. Added author-links and wikilinks to publishers/websites where possible. I made one long list be two columns. I did not change any content except for a single word jus → juice. Grorp (talk) 08:45, 1 January 2023 (UTC)