Talk:French schooner Belle Poule

Why Expand

Belle Poule, an ancient style ship, fought in the modern WWII. How is this possible... if she was succesful... perhaps as a transport, perhaps for anti-submarine warfare, her accomplishments should be listed, just as they are for USCGC Eagle (WIX-327). 23:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

A 650?

What does "A 650" mean? It's not mentioned in the text of the article. Should it be included in the disambiguation page at A650? PamD (talk) 09:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

My guess would be that the "A" stands for "Auxiliary", compare the list at List of current French Navy ships#Auxiliary Ships. I have included a reference to this article in the dab page. Favonian (talk) 14:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

A somewhat more accurate explanation may be French: autre ("other"), compare the list at fr:Liste des navires de la marine nationale française#Autres navires. Favonian (talk) 15:01, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

A 650 is her NATO pennant number. As a schoolship, she is listed as Auxiliary, with an "A" prefix. Rama (talk) 16:46, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Belle Poule was built in 1932 for l'Ecole Navale and not for a french merchant marine school

l'Etoile and la Belle Poule were built in 1932 for the French Navy (Ecole Navale..) at the request off Admiral Durand-Viel then chief of staff, who attended Ecole Navale in 1892 and had been part of the last round-the-world cruise of sail-frigate "Iphigénie". Llammakey undid my contribution wihout paying any interest to my arguments saying I had "Vandalized his article", after that, I corrected once more his error about who had this boat built in 1932, with following comments (also in "View History") "Llammakey and sfn|Schauffelen|2005|p=78 [2] are just plainly wrong l'Etoile and la Belle Poule were built in 1932 for the French Navy and not for the merchant marine. Please stop vandalizing my text because of german errors or propaganda. Plus they are not copy of fishing shooners, hull line are much finer. They ware inspired by Dunkerque's fishing schooner of 1850'. Naval architect was probably the same as for french battleship Dunkerque (1935)" and "Llammakey" answered "Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to vandalize Wikipedia, as you did at French schooner Belle Poule, you may be blocked from editing. Llammakey (talk) 13:00, 8 April 2020 (UTC)".

Look at the official description of this boat on french navy official website at: https://www.defense.gouv.fr/marine/equipements/batiments-de-patrouille-surveillance/batiments-specialises/ecoles/etoile-a-649-belle-poule-a-650

they clearly state (in french) that "L'Étoile à été mise en service le 20 novembre 1932 et la Belle-Poule le 20 juillet 1932". Which means in english that Belle-Poule was commissioned into the French Navy (Ecole Navale) the day it was delivered that is the 20th of July 1932. No way it could have been ever commissioned by any french merchant navy school.

I insist this boat was built in 1932 for l'Ecole Navale and not for a french merchant marine school, I don't see why this contribution has been undone twice without any consideration for my arguments and, as a good-faith and informed editor, I resent being treated of "vandal".

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.194.143.124 (talk) 23:44, 9 April 2020 (UTC) 

Llammakey, can you please comment here? Thanks. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:00, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

 Courtesy link: Special:Diff/950035313 of Llammakey's response on their talk. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 04:26, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

No it does not mean it was commissioned by the French Navy. Mise en service means put into service. Nowhere does it state that the French Navy put it into service. It just says it was put into service. What you are doing is WP:SYNTHESIS. Secondly when you use the words "German propaganda" - that is not assuming good faith, that is an attack on my person and therefore makes you to be the vandal. Furthermore at no time did you bring a source until now and you are interpreting it incorrectly. Also nowhere does it state in the source you have given that at the request off Admiral Durand-Viel then chief of staff, who attended Ecole Navale in 1892 and had been part of the last round-the-world cruise of sail-frigate "Iphigénie". So none of what you say goes into the article until you can actually bring sources that back up your claims. Llammakey (talk) 12:29, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

As for the comments at the Teahouse where the IP user states that the French did not partake in the cod fishery - I beg to differ as you can see here where it states the French participated not only in the cod fishery off Newfoundland, but also in the North Sea in the 16th and 17th centuries. However the French participation in the Newfoundland fishery was much diminished by the 1800s and ended in 1904. Here it states the French kept a cod fishing station in Iceland until World War I with "200 to 300 ships" serving off the Icelandic coast. I think anything else coming from this IP should be taken with a grain of salt as the IP cannot seem to get his facts straight. Llammakey (talk) 00:00, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Here is a news feed supplied by UP in Paris to the The Miami News, 13 Sep 1931, Sunday Page 5 -‘’Toward the end of 1930, the Minister of marine announced that two school ships would be built, one to be called ‘’La Belle Poule’’, but so far neither ship has been given an appropriation, and discussion at present centers on the training policy. Many officers believe that the future commanders should be taught on the kind of ships that they will command steel instead of wood, wire instead of rope, and coal and oil instead of wind power, speed instead of drifting.’’

This is a compelling statement. The Ministère de la Marine was a section of the French government - apart from the Ministry of War (French: Ministère de la Guerre) - that was in charge of the French navy and colonies. When you couple it with the phrase officers believe that the future commanders... it certainly looks like a Navy commission. Unfortunately I don't have access to French newspapers, so can't pursue it further; perhaps Rama? Broichmore (talk) 16:10, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Hello,

• Roche says nothing about "the French merchant marine school" (which school would that be, incidentally?)
• This link [1] gives more details about the construction, which was supervised by a Navy officer (Lieutenant Richard) who would be the first captain of the ship. This is typical of naval ships at least in France.
• you find here a link to this document which explicitly states that it was the Ministry of the Navy that ordered Belle-Poule and Étoile.

We could check L'Étoile et la Belle Poule by Béquignon et Rozen for further confirmation, but I think there is little reason to doubt that these ships were never intended for anything else than the École navale.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:04, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

@Llammakey: So now the IP had proven to be correct, and you've been supplied with references, when are you going to correct the article? Broichmore (talk) 16:36, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I just got L'Étoile et la Belle Poule by Béquignon et Rozen (respectively former captains of Belle Poule and Étoile in the 90s), and the ships were conceived from the start for naval purposes. Page 7 (which I quoted in the article) clearly references the ships as heirs to Melpomène and Borda, specifically designed for short cruises around Brest, and finishes by stating (I translate): "In 1931, the Minister of the Navy orders two [schooners] to Chantier naval de Normandie, in Fécamp, to serve as tenders to the École navale". I suppose the source cited by Llammakey made a little bit of a mistake (there are several schools training officers for the merchant navy anyway, so this always sounded a bit fishy). Hope that sorts it out. I might seize the opportunity to expand the article a bit, now that I have material to do so. Cheers! Rama (talk) 14:47, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Rama. The Belle-Poule was built in Fecamp by the Chantier Naval de Normandie which was then a semi-closed shipyard, not very active since 1914. French scholar fois qu’une commande de la Marine arrivait, elle était accompagnée de plans déjà réalisés et imposés, notamment pour la forme de la coque. Il est donc probable que ces plans soient ceux que les chantiers Gautier ont reçus, comme les chantiers de Fécamp, dans le cadre de l’appel d’offre. M. Clément précise que, en général, le chantier retenu ne pouvait guère apporter sa «touche locale» que sur les superstructures", which means that the hull-shape was most probably drawn by a naval architect belonging to the French Navy. An obvious suspect is adm. Durand-Viel, then chief of staff, whose family had a long maritime tradition in Dunkerque and who was the conceptor of french battleships Dunkerque and Richelieu. Plus, I understand that Dunkerque's fishing schooners or dundees from 1888 agree that hull shape is similar to Dunkerque or Graveline-type fishing Dundees or schooners from #1900 or before, but with finer "yacht-like" water-lines. and They have found drawing dated April 7, 1931 in Brittany (St Malo), but according to them "presque à chaque0' and before operated mostly off Newfoundland and not off Iceland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.194.143.124 (talk) 23:22, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

References

Not a replica ship !

By no mean , the Belle-Poulle or Etoile are " Replica of sailling ship" . When they were built ( early 30's ) , that wasn't the act of an experimental archéology or any nostalgy from the age of Sail

French shipyard still make them until the mid 30's . It's for that purpose , the navy staff choose conveniantly a "Goelette Paimpolaise " who is a fishing vessel .

Crazy_Defender_2 2A01:CB00:456:9C00:2CF7:24:4BF2:50A1 (talk) 08:17, 11 January 2024 (UTC)