Talk:Freya von Moltke

Not demonstrably notable?

This article does not meet the notability guidelines at WP:BIO. Association with notables does not , itself, make a person notable. A diligent author might make a case for notability might be made from von Moltke's autobiograpy, Memories of Kreisau and the German Resistance by Freya von Moltke, but I'm not sure how. Unless a case for notability is made by December 1, 2007, I will nominate it for deletion.HopsonRoad (talk) 16:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Good luck with that, then. Her Memories of Kreisau and the German Resistance is better described as history, not autobiography. And since she is a subject of Moltmann-Wendel, Elisabeth, Das Leben lieben - mehr als den Himmel : Frauenporträts, Gütersloh : Gütersloher Verlagshaus, 2005, Dorothee von Medingas, Courageous Hearts: Women and the Anti-Hitler Plot of 1944, and Alison Owings Frauen: German Women Recall the Third Reich as well as other works already cited in the article, and since a topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, I suspect your nomination will fail. Or perhaps you will be lucky and be able to improve Wikipedia by deleting the article. You should perhaps ask the German Wikipedia to delete their article as well. Allen Dulles had this to say about her: "The Countess was more than just the wife of the hero von Moltke since she was his close collaborator, untiring comrade-in-arms and the only woman to be present at the meetings of the Kreisau-Circle composed of prominent freedom fighters, Church leaders, intellectuals, labor leaders and army officers who hoped to overthrow the Nazi regime." She has perhaps not attained the same dizzying heights of notability as, say, Helen Hartness Flanders, but she has certainly attained the level of notability required for Wikipedia, despite being a woman who worked in conjunction with her husband. - Nunh-huh 17:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you for supporting the case for notability, Nunh-huh. You amply satisfy me with your argument. I'll try to incorporate that material into the article, unless you'd like to go first. I sense a little tongue-in-cheek with your HHF reference. Clearly HHF had the luxury of a peacetime setting to pursue a productive hobby, whereas FvM lived in the middle of a war under one of the most destructive regimes of all time. My issue was that the article didn't portray notable actions by FvM. BTW, the German article is quite light, too. But that's their issue. Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 21:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

• Could you provide a reference for the Allen Dulles quotation, please? I have some descriptions of the other works that you cited in the next section. You could add it to the list, below. Sincerely,HopsonRoad (talk) 01:49, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Literature citing Freya von Moltke

• Moltmann-Wendel, Elisabeth; Moltmann- Wendel, Elisabeth (2005), Das Leben lieben - mehr als den Himmel. Frauenporträts, Gütersloh: Gütersloher Verlagshaus, ISBN 3579052098-10 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help).

“ Dem Leben auf die Schliche kommen. Porträts mutiger und starker Frauen

Elisabeth Moltmann-Wendel porträtiert Frauen, die nicht einfach Harmonie und Selbsterfüllung suchten, sondern nach dem, was das Leben lebenswert, farbig, sinnenhaft, gerecht und gelingend macht. Sie stießen dabei auf Widerstände, an ungeschriebene Gesetze ihrer Gesellschaft, an die Starrheit der Religionen, an das Unverständnis von Männern, an die Grenzen des Lebens. Sie können uns heute lehren, dem Leben auf die Schliche zu kommen, Lebenskunst zu lernen und wieder aufzustehen: wie man Leben nicht nur erträgt, sondern ihm Farbe und Lust abgewinnen kann. Die Porträtierten: Hannah Arendt, Bettina von Arnim, Elisabeth Gnauck-Kühne, Renate Gräfin von Hardenberg, Annedore Leber, Freya Gräfin von Moltke, Henriette Schrader-Breymann, Charlotte Gräfin von der Schulenburg, Nina Schenk Gräfin von Stauffenberg, Henriette Visser't Hooft, Maxie Wander, Antonia von Württemberg.

”

• Von Meding (Author), Dorothee; Balfour (Translator), Michael; Berghahn (Translator), Volker R. (1997), Courageous Hearts: Women and the Anti-Hitler Plot of 1944, Oxford & New York: Berghahn Books, ISBN 1571818537-10 {{citation}}: |last= has generic name (help); Check |isbn= value: length (help).

“ Nazi justice following the attempt on Hitlers life on 20 July 1944 led not only to the brutal execution of scores of conspirators, but also dramatically changed the lives of their families. However, whereas it is the husbands who are celebrated annually as heroes of the resistance, little mention is made of their wives. This collection of interviews, which the author conducted with eleven of them, reveals that it was the womens’ courage that sustained their husbands both before the plot and later, in the face of certain violent death. ”

• Owings, Alison (1995), Frauen: German Women Recall the Third Reich, Piscataway, New Jersey: Rutgers University Press, ISBN 0813522005-10 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help).

“ Powerful testimony from 29 German women survivors of the Third Reich that provides not only a stunning portrait of life on the home front but also insights into a society that spawned both Hitler and the Holocaust. Wanting to find out why German women "did not behave like the humane peacemakers, the nurturers that people believe women really are, [and] stop the Nazis," Owings, a TV news-writer based in California, visited and revisited her subjects over a period of years, usually in their homes, where she was cordially received. Those interviewed include a former concentration-camp guard; the widow of a Resistance hero; a lifelong Communist residing in what was then East Germany; and an unrepentant Nazi schoolteacher. Also offering testimony are Lotte Muller, a plumber, who was sent to Ravensbruck--the notorious women's camp--because of her Communist connections; former countess Maria von Lingen, who always thought of herself as more a European than a German; Margret Blersch, a physician who helped save people the "Nazis would have murdered;" and Erna Dubnak, a low-paid worker who hid her "dear friend" Hilda Naumann, a Jew, throughout the war. During the war, most of the women endured great hardships as bombing raids intensified, food grew scarce, and the Russians advanced. The collapse of the German economy and the climate of fear that the Nazis created initially ensured the support of many of Owens's subjects--but according to Freya von Moltke, whose husband was executed by the Nazis, even those who didn't support Hitler carry a burden of guilt: "People who lived through the Nazi time, and who still live, who did not lose their lives because they were opposed, all had to make compromises." Oral history at its best, and a much-needed record of WW II German women, who “faced the day-to-day consequences of the Third Reich with impudence or despair, hesitation or hope, with shame, and with blinders.” ”

• Leber, Annedore; von Moltke, Freya (1961), Für und wider—Entscheidungen in Deutschland 1918-1945, Frankfurt-am-Main: Mosaik Verlag.
• Grose, Peter (1996), Gentleman Spy: The Life of Allen Dulles, Amherst, Massachusetts: University of Massachusetts Press, ISBN 1558490442-10 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help).

“ Allen located Freya von Moltke, widow of Helmut, and assured her a steady supply of U.S. Army rations as she wrote her memoir of Moltke’s resistance activities and his Silesian homestead under Russion and Polish occupation. ”

• von Moltke, Freya; Hoffmann, Eva (1996), Die Kreisauerin, Göttingen: Lamuv Verlag, ISBN 3889774415-10 {{citation}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help).

“ Freya von Moltke berichtet von ihrem Leben mit dem Wiederstandskämpfer Helmuth James von Moltke, der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus, aber auch von den Jahren des Weiterlebens nach der Ermordung ihres Mannes. "Eine wichtige Zeitzeugin, mehr noch: eine bewundernswerte Frau." Friedrich Andrae in: ekz-Infrmationsdiest "Ein beeindruckendes zeitgeschichtliches Zeugnis" Martin Weskott in: Der evangelische Buchberater ”

HopsonRoad (talk) 01:47, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Upgrade of Article

Progress

• I am in the middle of an upgrade of this article. I plan to complete it by 22 November. HopsonRoad (talk) 21:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
• I have completed the update, subject to proofreading and input from other editors.HopsonRoad (talk) 03:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
• I have proofread the article and done some wordsmithing. I'll be moving on to other projects, for the time-being.HopsonRoad (talk) 15:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Comments on Upgrade

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Von Moltke's Death

Freya von Moltke died on 1 January, 2010. Please review the changes that I have made to reflect this fact in the "View History" section, before making changes to reflect this change in circumstances. User:HopsonRoad 16:19, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Israeli site

This Israeli site: [Haaretz] talks about this German woman.Agre22 (talk) 13:45, 4 January 2010 (UTC)agre22

Justification for B-Class, Mid Importance—Project Germany

The article meets the following five criteria for B-Class:

• It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited.
• It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies.
• It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content.
• It is free from major grammatical errors.
• It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams.

It meets the following criteria for Mid Importance:

Topics that are reasonably notable on a national level within Germany without necessarily being famous or very notable internationally, including smaller towns. To support this, note the obituaries from major news outlets in Germany. Note further that von Moltke met with three Bundeskanzelers: Helmut Kohl in 1998, Gerhard Schroeder in 2004, and Angela Merkel in 2007.

User:HopsonRoad 14:49, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Links moved from article

I moved the following links from the article per WP:LINKFARM:

• Website of the Kreisau-Initiative Berlin e.V.
• Website of the Kreisau Foundation
• Freya von Moltke interview, Junge Freiheit on August 22, 1994
• Geschwister-Scholl-Preis recognition for Briefe an Freya (Letters to Freya) and the achievements of Helmuth von Moltke.
• Bruecke Prize recognition of von Moltke's life work.
• "Freya Gräfin von Moltke" - The Independent obituary
• "Freya von Moltke" - Daily Telegraph obituary
• "Freya von Moltke" - Hamburger Abendblatt obituary
• "Freya von Moltke" - Wienerzeitung obituary
• "Freya von Moltke" - Die Zeit obituary
• "Freya von Moltke" - Stern obituary

Here they are for mining for use in the article. User:HopsonRoad 04:24, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

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recognition by Merkel

Regarding my removal of a sentence which was reverted by an editor who claims " belongs here too" I say: The reference clearly attributes the recognition by Merkel to Moltkes husband: " On his centenary anniversary Sunday, German Chancellor Angela Merkel praised him as a symbol of "European courage" and for having a vision of a democratic Europe far ahead of its time." If you want this sentence in her bio, you need to find a different ref.

This whole page is so full of her husbands achievements already, it really should be rewritten. I just did the most general clean up in my copy edit.--Wuerzele (talk) 22:16, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi Wuerzele, I concur that you were headed in the right direction. And I apologize for the confusion that I caused.

Unfortunately, I realized that my reversion of your edit was ill-advised, so I reverted myself and added a phrase in what was there, previously, pertaining to Merkel's characterization of her husband. Now there are two mentions of the same event—the centenary celebration—with your revert of my second edit. I propose that we return to this edit. Do you concur?

Much of Moltke's life was devoted to the memory of her husband, so I don't feel that it's out of place to speak of the two concurrently. In this case, she was the guest of honor at the commemoration; explaining its significance seems to be appropriate in her bio. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 22:31, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

ok, HopsonRoad. More clean up is still needed, though. the bio is severely unbalanced and hypertrophied towards the Kreisau time, while the 60 years afterwards get short shrift in her bio . There are already wikipages about her husband and the Kreisau circle, so i find there is huge redundance. --Wuerzele (talk) 20:35, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts, Wuerzele. What sources do you have in mind to cover the years between WWII and her death? Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 20:59, 4 May 2020 (UTC)