Talk:Frittella (doughnut)

Merges

I have merged Frìtołe and Fritule into this article as all three refer to the same pastry.

After some googling, I'm thinking I should have merged all three into Frìtołe instead, as this seems to be both more common (cf. the itwiki article) and unambiguous (as "frittelle" can also refer to other dishes). Moving the page now would create some difficulties with the history. I suppose we could just copy and paste the contents of this article into Frìtołe and treat it as a merger. Un assiolo (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Recent changes

@JackkBrown: Some comments on your recent changes:

1. Not sure why you changed Friuli to Friuli-Venezia Giulia. The word fritulis as I understand is in Friulian and is therefore not used in Venezia Giulia.
2. You also removed the note saying they are called "frittelle or frittole in Italian" specifically. Not sure what the objection is here, and as far as I can tell, this completely removes any mention of the alternative name frittole from the article. I have undone these two changes.
3. The plural form should really be used throughout the article, as they are only ever encountered in groups. I assume you changed it to the singular to align it with the title; I saw nothing wrong with them being different, but I wouldn't mind changing the title to the plural. Frittelle currently redirects here. As noted above, Frìtołe might be a better choice. Any thoughts?

Un assiolo (talk) 18:58, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

@Un assiolo: I doubted some of my changes, so I asked you; you did a great job, thank you! JacktheBrown (talk) 19:20, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

merge of fritule

These merge edits:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fritule&diff=prev&oldid=1227957711
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fr%C3%ACto%C5%82e&diff=prev&oldid=1227958670
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frittella_(doughnut)&diff=prev&oldid=1227957585
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frittella_(doughnut)&diff=prev&oldid=1227958654

...did not seem to be accompanied with an explicit rationale or sources. They sure seem to be largely the same, but we need that to be substantiated by something other than "random anonymous Internet user Un assiolo made edits to this effect once upon a time", and if this is in fact correct, the merge needs to be completed by merging the infoboxes and lead sections, as opposed to this hodgepodge that remains right now. --Joy (talk) 21:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@Joy: When merging, I copied the entirety of both of the merged articles here, and then trimmed and copyedited it to make it make sense. I'm not sure what the objection is to the content of the article. There are two infoboxes because the two versions are slightly different, but I think having them both in one article is better than two perma-stubs. I guess we can merge the infoboxes, if you insist.

As for sources, the sources at fritule were abysmal – one blog and one long-dead website that's mostly a recipe with a couple of sentences of background info. Fritule could easily have been deleted had anyone noticed it. I'll see if I can find some better sources when I get the time. Here is a source saying fritole/frittelle are the same as fritule. Here is another one (in Croatian, but that shouldn't be a problem for you). I may add them to the article at some point. --Un assiolo (talk) 22:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that would be much better than what we have now. What would be the point of keeping a separate infobox? --Joy (talk) 08:24, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Done. --Un assiolo (talk) 09:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 14 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. If there is any objection within a reasonable time frame, please ask me to reopen the discussion. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans 08:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

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Frittella (doughnut) → Frittelle – Plural form, as they are only ever encountered in groups. Cf. spaghetti. Also eliminates the need for disambiguation. Un assiolo (talk) 09:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 10:44, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:PLURAL. "Frittella" and "Frittelle" are both used in English-language sources, unlike "spaghetto". 162 etc. (talk) 14:16, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
• I'll note that Frittella doesn't exist so even if the base name does not change, the article should be moved there. Frittelle does seem to be the more WP:COMMONNAME in English. So from PLURAL it almost would fall under With irregular plurals whose usage far exceeds the usage of the singular, the common and unastonishing plural titles ... are preferred particularly beginning in the late 1990s (when there were large shifts in American and English approaches to Italian food), but maybe we're not at "far exceeds"? See ngrams and some searching in newspapers.com finds a similar pattern: 393 hits total for frittella and 767 for frittelle, however before the 1990s fritella was the majority but some of those are Italian-language sources based on a quick look. Since 1995, in newspapers.com the counts are 470 for frittelle vs 107 for frittella (counts not not perfect since Frittella is a surname that appears as well). Skynxnex (talk) 14:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
• Comment The long-standing stable title of this article was Frittole (doughnut) until this year. Frittella is a red link, there is no need for a parenthetical disambiguation if the current title is kept. 162 etc. (talk) 16:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  If we add all the synonyms with ngrams in both plural and singular, like this, it's apparent that the plurals are much more common in more recent sources. --Joy (talk) 19:54, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  At the same time, it's not clear whether most of these book mentions are about the same thing, though.

  With singular, there's a lot of references to people instead. In Wikipedia already, we have such references to a person with that surname in Barbara Capponi and TG1, and Beatrice d'Este mentions a mononymously named person like that from the 15th century. Flädle says this may be a reference to omelets in Italy.

  With plural, the ambiguity at least remains in the realm of food: Zeppola mentions another type from Sardinia, Campania mentions frittelle di mare, Whitebait#Italy mentions Frittelle di Gianchetti/Bianchetti, List of Italian desserts and pastries links to the Italian article on Frittelle di riso di san Giuseppe from Tuscany and parts of Umbria and Lazio, Edible flower mentions Frittelle di Fiori d'Acacia, Lombard cuisine mentions two different variants.

  Note also that Sfenj says Frittelle is the Italian equivalent to that, but those in turn seem to be more often shaped like a ring or a loaf, with no mention of raisins, so maybe that was just more liberally phrased.

  Given all this, would it make more sense to keep this generic Italian term disambiguated somehow? Add a section on Italy in fritter or something like that to explain the variety? --Joy (talk) 07:37, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. WP:COMMONNAME applies only to foods and drinks known in the English language, such as, for example, panini. JacktheBrown (talk) 10:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• Comment Would anyone be in favour of moving to Frìtołe? This was the title of an article covering the same topic that was merged into this one. This avoids confusion with other things called "frittelle", since frìtołe refers only to the specific variety of doughnuts described here. We would still need to decide between plural (Frìtołe) and singular (Frìtoła). The latter is the title of the itwiki article, though I think the plural makes more sense, as I said in the nom. The alternative variants Frìtole and Fritole, omitting one or both diacritics, appear to be more widely used from a quick Google search. None of the versions with diacritics is present in Ngrams. I would argue that the omission of diacritics is due to the difficulty in entering them using a standard keyboard, and properly edited sources (example) include them. But while the one-diacritic and no-diacritic versions appear to be about equally common (19,400 and 26,800 Google hits respectively), the disparity between them and the two-diacritic version (698 Google hits) is so huge that the one-diacritic version might be preferable. For the singular, the numbers are 724, 58,300 and 566, but many of those results for the no-diacritic version are talking about different things. So among these variants, Frìtole is probably the best. (Note: all of them currently redirect here.) --Un assiolo (talk) 22:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
  • @Un assiolo: remember that WP:COMMONNAME applies only to foods and drinks known in the English language, such as, for example, panini. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Even if there's no established name in English, picking the most common among the foreign-language names seems like a good idea, if there are no overriding considerations. --Un assiolo (talk) 23:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Un assiolo: no, if the name is in italics (meaning: not well enough known in English) it's correct to use the Italian name and, therefore, the singular form. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@JacktheBrown sorry, where are you getting this interpretation from? There's nothing in the article title policy to prevent us from using plural here if the conventional Italian usage is in plural. --Joy (talk) 09:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Joy: you misinterpreted my message. Obviously "There's nothing in the article title policy to prevent us from using plural here if the conventional Italian usage is in plural.", but if the conventional Italian usage is in singular we can't use the plural form (for example: cannoli). JacktheBrown (talk) 11:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, that's the catch, we don't know that conventional usage is in singular. The move that moved from plural to singular just said "Incorrect " and nothing else. --Joy (talk) 11:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree, it's pretty clear that this food is strongly associated with Venice, where it originated and spread elsewhere in Italy and elsewhere in former Venetian possessions. Can you check the Google hits not just on the general search, but with the books search (&tbm=bks) and without personal search (&pws=0)? That should hopefully give us clearer hints as to what the scholarly consensus would be. --Joy (talk) 09:28, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Like this? I get:

• Frìtole: 205
• Fritole: 2,870
• Frìtołe: 5 (most of which seem to be erroneous)
• Frìtola: 93
• Fritola: 1,910 (many are talking about something else)
• Frìtoła: 5 (most of which seem to be erroneous)

In conclusion, the two-diacritic version is indeed very obscure and the plural versions are clearly more common. The no-diacritic version is more common than the one-diacritic version, but as I said above, I still think the one-diacritic version is better. Note that for all versions, many of the results are in Italian rather than English. --Un assiolo (talk) 17:20, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. In the first few pages for the most popular results I found these interesting:

• [1] La cucina del Veneto distinguishes just "fritole" as fritelle di Carnevale, while several others are naturally disambiguated with suffixes
• [2] talks of a Venetian aria de la fritola and translates una fritola as "a fritter", but says that in context it's actually meant as an allusion to female private parts, and that they actually used plural to make it sound more conventional and evade censorship (as if it was a reference to the food)

--Joy (talk) 17:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• @162 etc., Skynxnex, and Joy: Thoughts on the alternative proposal? Regarding WP:PLURAL, I'm not sure if any of the specific exceptions listed apply (the one about irregular plurals seems to be about English words), but right below the list, it explicitly says that WP:IAR is an option. As someone who has eaten many fritule, talking about a singular fritula, the way the article formerly did, is bizarre and unnatural. --Un assiolo (talk) 23:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Food and drink has been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 10:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.