Talk:Fulcrum (Chuck)

Purpose

All this talk about Fulcrum being a part of the ring with no obvious purpose. I think that Fulcrum was the (sort of) science department created to build or steal an intersect, and that's it. All other objectives like keeping America's place were the objectives of the Ring as a whole. Throughout season 2, most of Fulcrum's plans were aimed at making an intersect, and the rest could simply have been the ring's missions which the government attributed to fulcrum because they didn't know the ring existed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.86.98.4 (talk) 01:23, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem with that is looking at Fulcrum's personnel, a significant majority of them were drawn from rogue CIA operatives, military, and other current and former government personnel. As one agent said: They have operatives in every branch (even a high-ranking Police Hostage Negotiator like Mauser). Although they DID have a number of scientists, this appears only to be one part of their organization. Additionally, The Ring has clear international goals (IE: the assassination attempt of Goya to prevent democratic elections) whereas Fulcrum's goals have only ever been shown as domestic to the US. Ambaryer (talk) 04:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

That's what I mean though. No-one knew The Ring existed at the time. So when they say that Fulcrum has agents everywhere, they may have meant Ring agents. Think about it; if you'd only heard the name fulcrum being mentioned for an organization, you wouldn't assume the name was only for a small part of it. It wasn't until the end of series 3 that they realized The Ring was more than just Fulcrum. All the stuff that was confirmed to be Fulcrum exclusivly was to do with the intersect, and all the stuff after Fulcrum was destroyed was nothing to do with it. All the agents who did Fulcrum's bidding could just have been generic Ring agents who were given tasks to serve Fulcrum at that particular time. Sman789 (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

You're forgetting, FULCRUM agents (Brad White and the guy from Lethal Weapon) expressed distaste with how America was trying to fight the War on Terror using Cold War-era Intelligence tactics. FULCRUM agents responded to accusations of treason by stating they were being patriots. We're talking guys Chuck flashed on in big red letters identifying them as Fulcrum. Beckman SPECIFICALLY told the team that after several years of fighting FULCRUM they were the only ones to have success against them. That The Ring was unknown to Team Bartowski at the time is meaningless, because the intelligence community itself DID know. Bryce knew SOMETHING about The Ring but died before he could tell any of it to Chuck. Shaw has been tracking The Ring for at least FIVE YEARS, (Eve's death while acting as a double agent to infiltrate The Ring five years prior to Season 3 places this to as early as 2005, BEFORE Bryce destroyed the original Intersect) which means that high levels of the CIA DEFINITELY knew about The Ring's existence during the time Chuck, Sarah and Casey were dealing with Fulcrum. Therefore we can DEFINITIVELY infer that if an agent identified himself, or the Intersect identified an agent as Fulcrum, then he WAS Fulcrum. And this means that Fulcrum's motives in of itself was NOT merely acquiring The Intersect. Acquiring the Intersect was a MEANS TO AN END, NOT the end itself. Ambaryer (talk) 03:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Jill Roberts

I've added a note to the update on Chuck having not flashed on Jill before hearing her code name. Based on previous episodes this IS consistent with the behavior of the Intersect, where Chuck doesn't flash on the individual, but some notable characteristic (scar, etc) or code-name (as occurred with Longshore in "Chuck vs. the Marlin"). Ambaryer (talk) 14:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Jill and Bryce

Good catch on Jill. Now that I think about it, Jill HERSELF never actually told Chuck when she dumped himn she was seeing Bryce. The roommate did, and Jill didn't correct her. I wonder if the roommate could have been Jill's Fulcrum recruiter? Ambaryer (talk) 20:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Lizzie Shafai

, exotic-looking

there a reference for her being exotic looking? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.237.233 (talk) 23:58, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Would a picture count? Ambaryer (talk) 01:47, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Not unless you have some way to document her looking exotic, or a character on the show saying she looks exotic. By exotic do you mean "not white"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.237.233 (talk • contribs) 14:26, 6 February 2009

That is right. In the politically correct world words like "exotic" have no meaning except as inflammatory words intended isolate and separate individuals as being different. Specifically there are no recognized authorities in what is "exotic". If there are no recognized authorities Wikipedia considers the subject worthless or nonexistent. Perhaps a better stance than becoming world authority on standards of beauty.

Furthermore, the most generous definitions of "exotic" are clearly relative to specific cultures and RACES! Take a hint before the prior reader has you barred from Wikipedia for racism. Wikipedia is one place which adheres to the idea of culturally neutered information.

Obviously there are at least two sides to this issue. But the Wikipedia staffing is intentionally keeping their hands clean by letting the political activists beat people into a cultural neutral definition scheme. The extra baggage that comes along with that is unfortunate but lets the Wikipedia staff continue to operate without accruing controversy themselves. It is true that in central China a touch of white ancestors blood would perhaps be considered "exotic" and different. Or Oriental looks in central Africa. However, as a more racial neutral comment "exotic" does tend to mean that whatever the racial contributions, these features tend to be unconventionally attractive...or in less polite terms this combination of features is normally considered somewhat ugly or strange, yet somehow works well for this person.

69.23.124.142 (talk) 04:08, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Wow... and here I thought that it was silly to list her as being exotic looking due to the fact that at no time dose any character on the show call her exotic looking, nor do any of the cast members in any interview I've read.

You know, i have to admit I'm still curious here. We had that nice little thing about the meaning of the word "exotic". Isn't it more important that NONE of the characters refer to her as being exotic, that none of the writers address her as "exotic" and that none of the cast mentions her as "exotic". I would think that No Original Reserved tops any definition of "exotic" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.233.39 (talk) 11:14, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

did she ever come back to the series? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.236.19 (talk) 17:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The Buy More has been a place of interest to FULCRUM, having planted bugs in "Chuck Verses the Marlin", staging a hostage situation in "Chuck Verses Santa Claus", and noting to Vincent that they'd lost operatives there before (Ned, Lt. Mauser, Dr. Jill Roberts, and Leader were captured or killed on or near the premises). I actually think it might be funny if they decided Big Mike (who took out Leader and helped take out Ned) is CIA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jclinard (talk • contribs) 09:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Colt and Banicheck

I recently rewatched the first two episodes of Season 2. Although it's heavily implied that Mr. Colt and Banicheck were working for FULCRUM, it's never ACTUALLY stated explicitly that this is the case. Colt only briefly refers to his employers (with that word) and Banicheck never herself discusses who she's working for (only Beckman mentions her being a mercenary). The only undeniable mention of FULCRUM in either episode was their "FULCRUM THANKS YOU" message when Graham started the rebuilt Intersect. Considering that both Colt and Banicheck were identified as mercenaries, and there was no dialog specifically linking them to FULCRUM, should they be removed from the FULCRUM article and added to the Chuck Characters one? Ambaryer (talk) 03:51, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Elders

I'm a bit confused. Are we sure that the Ring elders are the same as the Fulcrum elders? The Fulcrum elders had a Fulcrum logo in front of them. The Ring has a big ring behind them. Both are backlit, and both have their voices covered. We never saw what became of the Fulcrum elders.--DurandalsFate (talk) 02:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I think we need to consider this a case of "If it looks like a duck..." Other than insignia the two circumstances were identical right down to the lighted footprints where Vassily stood when conferring with them, so someone watching the episode would look at the two scenes and say it was the same people, not two organizations using the same mysterious command style. Additionally, when Vincent spoke with them about the Buy More they said "Fulcrum has lost agents there..." Granted this treads the OR line, but if they were Fulcrum's leaders wouldn't they have said "WE?" Ambaryer (talk) 03:52, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

FYI - I just pulled a screencap from Chuck Versus the Predator. There is NO Fulcrum logo on the "Elder's" conference table, and you can clearly see the bottom of the Ring-shaped insignia behind them. I'm uploading it to the Ring article now. I think we can consider this confirmation that it's the exact same facility AND panel of leaders. Ambaryer (talk) 23:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The Role of Vincent

The revelation that the Council Vincent met with was actually The Ring introduces another interesting question: Exactly which organization did Vincent ACTUALLY work for? Was he really a Fulcrum operative, or was he an agent directly for The Ring that was ordered to assist Roark with his Intersect project? Ambaryer (talk) 17:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Does he not mention Fulcrum in his dialogue?--DurandalsFate (talk) 00:19, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd have to go through and watch his three episodes. I can't remember him having ever specifically referring to HIMSELF as a member of Fulcrum. And why would he ask The Ring's senior leadership DIRECTLY for permission to follow-up on Orion at the Buy More if he was a member of Fulcrum. One would think he'd have reported to a direct superior withing Fulcrum instead (such as Roark, who was heading up Fulcrum's development of the Intersect in the first place). It seems more likely from this he was a high-level operative of The Ring tasked to support Roark. Ambaryer (talk) 01:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

In "Predator," Orion sends a message to the team breaking into his Hong Kong hideout saying "It's been a hard day for Fulcrum." Chuck, using the Fulcrum Intersect, later flashes on Vincent -- first flashing on his face when stealing back Orion's laptop (which says "Fulcrum," indicating that he's a Fulcrum agent), and then flashing on him stealing the car in "Colonel." In "Predator," Vincent says Fulcrum agents are taught to survive the poison he gave himself.--DurandalsFate (talk) 02:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, it's been too long for some of those details. It still begs the question of how exactly the liaison between The Ring and its smaller member groups works. Is Vincent that highly placed within their organization that he can communicate directly with The Ring? Mauser in vs. Santa Claus also indicated he was an unusually important person, would he have had direct access to the Council as well? It's a shame Fulcrum was abandoned entirely after the Season 2 finale, I would have liked to have seen just how the organizations interacted. Ambaryer (talk) 03:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

My thought is that if Fulcrum is just one part of The Ring, then each part might have a representative on the "Council." Since The Ring is composed of many small cells, it may be that relatively minor cell leaders are able to contact leadership if they have important info (news of Orion or Shaw). Also, agreed: it's been awkward suddenly going from "[Fulcrum is] just one part of The Ring" to all these agents just calling themselves "Ring" agents, and seeing no more of Fulcrum, which we were told had different motives from The Ring.--DurandalsFate (talk) 04:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Here's one possibility: We know that Fulcrum believed they were defending the United States through whatever means necessary. We know The Ring has global interests (IE: their assassination attempt on Goya). Perhaps The Ring utilizes domestic organizations to further their goals within individual countries while they oversee the global agenda. The reason that all the operatives we've been seeing have primarily been Ring agents now is because the team has moved "up the food chain," so to speak. Rather than attacking the smaller composite organization like Fulcrum, they're actually dealing directly with The Ring's contacts with those organizations while other agencies handle the "small potatoes."

For example, Jack Artman may have been coordinating with factions within Goya's government attempting to stop the elections. There may have been a domestic splinter group prepared to seize power once Goya was dead, with Artman being assigned the task of handling the assassination both for his expertise and since Goya was out of reach of the local affiliated organization (maybe a sort underworld equivalent to US military advisors in developing nations). While Team Bartowski stopped the high-level Ring plot, the Costa Gavran authorities handled the local splinter faction.

And we HAVE still seen hints of these affiliated groups, through the mobsters Matty and Scotty, and possibly also Karl Stromberg: assets supporting The Ring, but not actually Ring members themselves. We're just seeing the team take care of the main Ring threats while other groups deal with the affiliates. And if you think about it, this sort of compartmentalization makes sense. That way, if a group like Fulcrum or Matty and Scotty's gang goes down to local authorities, The Ring itself is largely insulated: They may lose an asset, but not in a way that's necessarily crippling or threatens their own organization or overall agenda because they can just find another one to replace it. Ambaryer (talk) 05:27, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

"have not yet been..."

well, the show's been over for almost 2 years now (hrm... 1/27/12...) and there seems little chance (that I know of?) of a successor series. Maybe the tense, here, might be changed... Schissel | Sound the Note! 04:10, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

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