Talk:Günther von Reibnitz

Statement by urs.knecht

Dear Moonraker, To my knowledge there are no published sources. However I contacted Reibnitz's son who made the following points regarding the plausibility of the claim that his father was "planted in the SS to act as Goering's spy": There is no mention to support the claim in his father's written reminiscences for his family. It is of course very difficult to prove a negative, but the following circumstantial evidence tends to work against the claim. Reibnitz became a member of the Reiter-SS ('Cavalry-SS' - see the heading SS Cavalry Corps in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel), not the Allgemeine SS (the political wing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allgemeine_SS) and not the Waffen-SS (the military wing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS). It is an accepted fact that the Reiter-SS was never an active SS unit. As a member of the Wehrmacht (the German regular army) Reibnitz could not also have been a member of the Waffen-SS. He held the rank of Sturmbannführer (Major) in the Reiter-SS, a relatively low rank in an inactive unit, which does not seem strongly supportive of  "planted in the SS to act as Goering's spy". The circumstances under which Reibnitz was invited to become Gaujägermeister (director of hunting) for Silesia: At the annual ‘Grüne Woche’, the Agriculture Exhibition, of January 1932 in Berlin, Reibnitz met and became friends with Ulrich Scherping, the chairman of the Prussian association of hunting clubs, as well as Baron Otto von Dungern, the head of the Association for the Preservation of  Hunting for Brandenburg, and other directors of hunting in Germany.  In the winter of 1932 the director for Silesia of the Association for the Preservation of German Hunting, Duke Viktor von Ratibor, resigned from his position following his involvement in a tragic hunting accident. At the next 'Grüne Woche' in Berlin in January 1933, after the National Socialists came to power,  Reibnitz again met Ulrich Scherping, who had been instructed by Hermann Goering, then the Prussian Chief Minister, to develop a new Prussian hunting law. Scherping had already been working on this for months with some friends, and Reibnitz had become involved in this work. At the 'Grüne Woche', Scherping and his friend Otto von Dungern asked Reibnitz if, within the newly founded association of hunting clubs, he would take over the management of hunting for Silesia in an honorary capacity. Reibnitz agreed, Scherping proposed the appointment to Goering, who was head of the German hunt, and Goering agreed to the appointment. These circumstances do not suggest that Reibnitz was close enough to Goering for him to plant Reibnitz in the SS as his spy. Having passed these points on to you I will leave to you what you wish to do with the DYK panel and its online citation, as I have no further evidence to offer. --Urs.knecht (talk) 11:19, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Challenge to DYK hook

Urs.knecht removed the above DYK panel and also deleted from the article the online citation for it ("Barry Everingham, Wiesenthal's Nazi Tracking In Australia from The Australian dated 9-22-05"). That article says

"Then some confusion crept in -- historians at the Yad Vashem Institute in Jerusalem claimed that the baron was planted in the SS to act as Goering's spy. Wiesenthal didn't deny this -- he shrugged his shoulders, admitting it could be true. "So what?" he said, "the man was a Nazi and never forget that" ".

Urs.knecht is suggesting that this is incorrect, and perhaps it is, but the citations so far provided are obscure ("Simon-Wiesenthal-Institut Vienna, file Gunther von Reibnitz" and "Yad Vashem, ref.no. 262278 date 8 October 2013"). Wikipedia does not deal in original research, it relies on reliable sources. To give your disagreement with Everingham more weight, can we please have some published sources, Urs.knecht? Moonraker (talk) 00:04, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Urs.knecht

From german wikipedia "Diskussion" - "Talk": This site has as its focus the English Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunther_von_Reibnitz. It was imported, translated and supplemented. Errors were not accepted for importation. The text below was prepared to support the changes in the English language Discussion site “TALK”.
30 years after the death of a person registered in the Bundesarchiv Berlin, the archive makes the documents relating to that person available for public access. The files relating to Günther von Reibnitz, who died in 1983, became available in 2013. This has opened up access to safer sources than previously available for a Wikipedia article about him. The article in the English Wikipedia was imported into the German one for translation in January 2014. The facts now available will become part of the German article and should likewise change the English one. By this means we seek to elevate the quality of the English Wikipedia article.
The basic documents are the following sources:
NSDAP-Gaukartei (formerly part of the “Berlin Document Centre”)
NS-Archiv des Ministeriums für Staatssicherheit der DDR, ZB 5983, page 155
Oberstes Parteigericht, I. Kammer
Rasse- und Siedlungsamt
SS-Akte
Other sources:
Spiegel Nr. 17, 1985, dated 22 April 1985, “Verdammte Schande”.
The Times, 24 April 1985, “Baron nominal party member, tribunal said”.
The Times, 25 April 1985, “Princess’s mother praises ‘brave baron’”.
Gordon Brook-Shepherd, “The Strange Marriage of Baron von Reibnitz”, The Sunday Telegraph, 28 April 1985.

The points of disagreement with the English Wikipedia article are:
1. Kingdom of Prussia – the sovereign kingdom of Prussia came to its end after the German-French war of 1870/71 with the establishment of the German empire in January 1871 in Versailles. When von Reibnitz was born in 1894 he was born in the province of Silesia of the German empire (Deutsches Reich). Changed.
2. There is no evidence in the files that he was a friend of Hermann Göring (see also point 10). Deleted.
3. He was a member of the Reiter-SS (a unit with no active involvement in the war, made up of landowners with equestrian interests), not the regular SS. Changed.
4. Yad Vashem was not able to confirm that von Reibnitz was planted in the SS as a spy for Hermann Göring. Barry Everingham responded to us that his information came from Simon Wiesenthal. The Simon-Wiesenthal-Institute in Vienna could not confirm the statement. Deleted.
5. von Reibnitz was educated in the Preußische Hauptkadettenanstalt (the Prussian military cadet academy) in Berlin-Lichterfelde, not in Vienna. Changed.
6. Because of point 5 the ‘nickname’ has been deleted.
7. The statement “Reibnitz had two passions, sport, especially hunting, and women” is a gratuitous assertion by the author of the English Wikipedia article. The fact that von Reibnitz married four times is not in itself evidence that women were a “passion”. Comment deleted.
8. The 2nd Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg Dragoons Regiment No. 18 (2. Großherzoglich-Mecklenburgisches Dragonerregiment Nr. 18) was a cavalry unit of the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg armed forces (Großherzoglich Mecklenburgische Streitkräfte). It was integrated into the Prussian army and so became part of the German imperial army (Deutsches Reichsheer). It was not an “elite unit of the imperial cavalry”. Deleted.
9. “During the First World War he served with the German Army's 18th Regiment of Dragoons”. It is correct that he served as a member of the 18th Dragoons. But because he was wounded a few weeks after the beginning of the the First World War, for the duration of almost the entire war he was a PoW of the French and was exchanged shortly after the death of his father in September 1918. Changed.
10. “In 1931, Reibnitz joined the Nazi Party, having been influenced to do so by Herman Göring.” von Reibnitz joined the National Socialist Party in 1930. It has not been established that he knew Hermann Göring then. In 1934 Göring, as head of the German hunt, appointed him to the honorary (unpaid) post of director of hunting (Gaujägermeister) for the province of Silesia. However there are no safe sources to support the claim of a friendship with Göring (see also point 2). Deleted.
11. There are no safe sources, in fact no sources at all, for the claim that he was a member of the “Lebensborn” program. Deleted.
12. “...served as an officer in the Nazi storm-troopers, the SS”. At the outbreak of the Second World War von Reibnitz was drafted into the regular army (Wehrmacht). As an officer of a tank regiment of the Wehrmacht he could not also serve as a member of the regular SS (as distinct from the Reiter-SS (cavalry SS), which was neither a regular SS unit nor a unit of the Waffen-SS). Because of ill health he was sent back from the front in 1940, but remained on the reserve list of the regular army. Changed.
13. “...married a member of [the Catholic Church] without the knowledge of the party”. As a horse breeder and devotee of equestrian sport, von Reibnitz became a member of the Reiter-SS in 1934. In this capacity he sought and was given permission for his second marriage by the SS. However he was also a member of the regular army, and like all army members he had to demonstrate that he had the official permission of his military superior when applying to marry. Deleted.
14. “...during the war joined the Roman Catholic Church...”. von Reibnitz joined the Catholic Church in 1921, before he married his first wife. Deleted.
15. “...no action was taken against him”. Because he had held the honorary post of Gaujägermeister (director of hunting) for Silesia, Reibnitz was interned by the US army after the war, he was investigated and in 1948 a German court (the Upper Bavarian Appeal Tribunal) found him to have been a “nominal party member”, “not a member of any organization condemned as criminal in the Nuremberg judgment” and “equivalent to a non-accused person”. Changed.
16. “The family fled Germany and emigrated to Mozambique”. His marriage to Marianne Szápáry ended in divorce in 1946. After his release from internment he worked in Munich, and emigrated from there to South Africa in 1950, where he married his third wife that year. His former wife Marianne Szápáry and their children emigrated from Austria to Australia in 1950. Changed.
17. “Reibnitz attended the marriage of his daughter Marie Christine to Prince Michael of Kent, in a civil ceremony in Vienna, flying out from Mozambique”. von Reibnitz left Mozambique in 1976 to live in Germany. When his daughter married Prince Michael of Kent in Vienna in 1978, he travelled from Germany, not from Mozambique, to attend her wedding. Changed. --Urs.knecht (talk) 17:09, 4 February 2014 (UTC) --Urs.knecht (talk) 15:00, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Lebensborn programme

Urs.knecht says above "There are no safe sources, in fact no sources at all, for the claim that he was a member of the “Lebensborn” program. Deleted." However, the article had a source, which was the Everingham article referred to above in the "Challenge to DYK hook" section (viz. "Barry Everingham, Wiesenthal's Nazi Tracking In Australia from The Australian dated 9-22-05"). That citation was deleted, as well as the text itself. The Everingham article says "Wiesenthal's records confirmed the baron was part of the Lebensborn (Source of Life) program where Aryan men impregnated Aryan women to produce Aryan babies for the future Nazi empire." This can of course be disputed, but it will not do simply to claim "There are no safe sources, in fact no sources at all". What we need is a better source which states that Everingham is incorrect. Failing that, the deletion is lacking in objectivity. Moonraker (talk) 00:18, 14 February 2014 (UTC)