Talk:Game designer/Archive 1

Computer Games Bias

This page, and the associated others by the same author, while trying to cover computer and video games, is/are very biased towards a rather old-fashioned view of (specifically) computer game design. The list of noted designers, the description of a designer's process and the example games are at odds with the proportional differences between console and PC game sales. If this page seeks to reflect the current state of the game designers job, it needs to be much less focussed and biased towards PC games. --86.139.145.219

Wow, not only attacking me, but most of the other game articles by me! How efficient! I don't want to bite the newcomer, but I created all the articles because I saw a real need. They didn't exist before I wrote them, or were in a very poor state and I improved and expanded upon them. Yes, my happy years in game programming (as a game programmer) were focussed on PC games, so excuse me. I related the information as I experienced it.

If you want to balance out the article by adding the console game side of the story, please feel free. This is a wiki and being bold is encouraged. So instead of just complaining about, do something. If you want to discuss something before implementing it, please do so. All the designers listed (unless someone changed it recently) are noted designers, regardless of what platform they designed their game(s) for. If there is a difference in the design process for console games, if you know what it is, add it. — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:05, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

From a Wikipedian who has worked as a designer on the console side for several years: In general most of what "the regulars" do on this and allied pages has felt balanced to me. If one article or another misses something I just add it. If a big change is necessary I've learned to pitch it to the group on the Talk page first. But I've never felt like my console-based point of view was unwelcome, even if not all my brilliant suggestions gain support. I actually think our biggest need is that we do the best job chronicling games in North America and Japan, and have less focus on game history and happenings in Europe and in Asia (apart from Japan). As Frecklefoot said, try editing a few pages to add the balance you see as missing; others will jump in and we'll end up with better articles. Coll7 01:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

First Things First

To save you the trouble, this article is NOT a copyvio—all the text came from my own little head from my numerous years in the computer game industry. I developed it exclusively for the 'pedia. Secondly, if anyone can think of any other notable game designers, please add them. Personally, I'll add a scan of a game design document or two when I get around to it. :^) —Frecklefoot 18:22, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

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X vs Xer

This seems a little redundant with game design. The usual practice has been to redirect the term for practitioners of an occupation (say ornithologist) to the occupation itself (ornithology), and make a "list of Xers"/Category:Xers for the list of people involved. Otherwise it gets kind of forced to say anything useful and distinctive about the practitioners that is not also part of the description of the activity. Stan 06:38, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, the two articles have totally different content and I don't think they overlap right now. So do you suggest we move the content from game design to this article and just put it in different sections? I actually like the division now: one article discusses the process (game design), the other discusses the job (game designer). I also think it'll be a nice seperation when content is added on designing games other than computer and video games. If we lump all that information--when it actually exists--into one article, it could be cumbersome. However, this is just MHO and I'll go with whatever the majority rule is. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 13:49, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)

As I mentioned, the usual thing is to have articles on the activity (computer science instead of computer scientist, sociology instead of sociologist, etc), although not always, for instance physicist is different from physics (but note the stubly nature). Game design should encompass board games, for instance the whole subculture of board wargame design, and it should be about the principles of design that are the same whether it's one person or a term, board/computer/schoolyard. The part about the game designer needing to be diplomatic, for instance, is really only a consideration for modern commercial game design, which should have its own section, or even a separate article focussed specifically on the process of commercial game creation. Back when I was doing amateur game design, there was a lot of stuff I would have liked to know, like whether game theory was really useful or not, or what AI techniques worked well, but the politics of commercial game development would have been irrelevant. Anyway, just wanted to raise awareness of standard practice in WP, dunno when I'll get around to adding my own content here. Stan 15:51, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Stereotypes & blanket statements

"It is not easy, though many people (especially teenage boys) think they "have what it takes" to perform this job."

Rather than present a biased opinion on "teenage boys," the article should objectively state that the common stereotype for game design hopefuls are teenage boys?

"Almost everyone in the game industry has what they believe is a "killer game" concept and is waiting for the opportunity to develop the game."

This is a common belief thrown around, but does it really have any truth? It seems a like an exagerated, blanket statement to me.

Since I'm the one who probably wrote those statements, let me address your concerns. Yes, teenage boys are a common stereotype for "gamers." Even my son who is not yet a teen would love to design video games for a living.

I put this in because, from my experience, it fit. In my years as a game programmer, I'd sometimes run into teenage boys. As soon as they found out I was a game programmer, they'd get excited and say something along the lines of "I have a killer idea for a game! How do I get your company to make it?" Then I'd ask them what they planned to contribute to the game and they describe a role similar to a game designer (except they planned to make a lot more money and have way more free time than any real game designer I've ever met).

Whenever I'd mention to any teenage girls what I did for a living, they normally wouldn't blink an eye. Sometimes, though, they'd yawn.

So, yes, it is a stereotype, but one that's particularly fitting. It isn't a myth. If you want to take a crack at objectifying it, though, please feel free.

Next, "Almost everyone in the game industry has what they believe is a "killer game" concept and is waiting for the opportunity to develop the game." This statement isn't a myth either. Over about 10 years, I worked for about six game developers, and at every one there were people—artists, testers, programmers, me and even producers—who had at least one "killer game" concept they wanted to someday try out. Even the game designers had other game ideas they wanted to someday try, but couldn't, until their current game "made it big."

So, both the statements may sound like myths, but in my experience, they are very accurate. It's not all that hard to beleive, though, is it? Who pushes their kid into the game industry? They're in the industry because they want to be there. And being in the industry, it's natural they'd want to part of the most creative facet of the business. — Frecklefoot | Talk July 5, 2005 19:41 (UTC)

one might add that Teenage Boys (18,19) are hired quite often by EA (electronic arts) and make their careers there with little or no training --68.162.129.158

Statement made by Frecklefoot: So, yes, it is a stereotype, but one that's particularly fitting. It isn't a myth. If you want to take a crack at objectifying it, though, please feel free.

This statement, as a sterotype, is baised. At the very least, it should be changed, as the original poster in this section commented, to an objective view. Argueably, it should be got rid of all together. Just say "many people" have ideas for games, which is true. --86.128.193.230

I've already defended the comment above. I don't really feel a need to defend it again. If someone changes it to a less subjective version, I'm all for it. Actually, I saw your change and I don't object. But three things:

1. First, I think you meant "biased," not "baised."
2. Second, sign your posts, even if you're not signed in or don't have a (free) account. You can do this with 3 or 4 tildes (~~~ or ~~~~). It makes it easier to keep track of who said what.
3. Third, don't insert your comment into the middle of someone else's post. It makes it look like that poster forgot to sign his post and makes it hard to follow who said what. If you must, quote, as I did for you above. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

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Statement with absolutely no context

Actually, I started it with the line "one who designs games" which I then changed to "a person who designs games" (anonymous user who wishes to remain anonymous). --68.162.129.158

What are you talking about? Your IP address doesn't show up in any recent edit of the article.

Next, don't insert statements into the middle of someone elses post, as you did in the section above. I moved it to the bottom, to where you should have added it and added a signature (it's just your IP address, but it is better than nothing). Inserting comments like that is just rude and makes it hard to follow who's speaking.

Lastly, always sign your posts, even if you just have an IP address! If you want to remain totally anonymous, don't post at all. Your username or IP address are always recorded whenever you make an edit or a post. Imagine the confusion we'd have if no one signed their posts at all. We'd just have a bunch of comments flying from one anonymous person to another. It'd be impossible to make out who was saying what. Yes, this is one of my pet peeves, but I'm determined to stick to it. If you don't know how, you can sign your posts with 3 or 4 tildes (~~~ or ~~~~). The latter is preferred since it also adds a timestamp. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:22, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Added game designer to "other" list

Have added Chris Beatrice of Caesar and Lords of the Realm to the "other" list. Glad to discuss! -- Sitearm | Talk 18:47, 2005 August 17 (UTC)

Well, you put in the section for traditional game designers. I moved him to the correct section. See below. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:12, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

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Time to trim the list again

Even with the warning in the section, the "Notable video and computer game designers" section has grown to be, in my opinion, too big. I propose we trim it and move any "non-notables" to the List of video game designers if they're not already there. This section was intended to give just a sampling of some the very most noted video game designers, but, as I feared, people have added their favorite designers or the designers of their favorite games to the list. Unless they are truly notable, they don't belong there. They can go on the other list. Below are the designers I think should be trimmed and why. The ones not mentioned should stay in the list (IMHO):

Added my 2 cents below; if no comment I agree as posted.Coll7 07:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

• Chris Beatrice - Lead designer of Caesar and Lords of the Realm.

Both fine games, but not a noted designer.

• Julian Gollop, designer of Chaos, Laser Squad and X-COM: UFO Defense.

While I probably added him, and love the X-COM series of games, he is not really all that noted. His X-COM games are, he isn't...

• Hideo Kojima of Snatcher, Policenauts and the popular Metal Gear Solid series.

Never heard of the first two, only the last one. Regardless, not really all that notable.

He gets massive publicity from Japan, so prominent in that way. Got his own G4 biography show. Vote to keep.Coll7 07:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

• Jeff Minter: founder of Llamasoft.

Apparently famous in the UK alone. Not universally notable.

• Yu Suzuki, designer of many classics that became genres, such as Hang On, Virtua Racing, Virtua Fighter series, F-355 Challenge and the Shenmue series.

The games he designed are fine, but he never became notable himself.

Named to Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences Hall of Fame two or three years ago. Very big in Japan. Vote to keep. Coll7 07:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

• Tim Schafer, designer of Grim Fandango and Psychonauts.

Never heard of the second game and not all that notable.

Tim gets lots of admiration for creativity, got his own G4 biography on Icons, though games have never been commercial hits. Lots of press this year for Psychonauts, but it didn't sell. Torn on this one. Coll7 07:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Is commercial success a good indicator? Schafer is huge in the industry for his creativity. His talks at GDC are always standing-room only. Grim Fandango is frequently mentioned as one of the most original games of all time, and also got GameSpot's Game of the Year Award in 1998. Peers such as Will Wright often express their admiration for his work. That his games are relatively less popular with the masses weighs much less to my mind. Discuss? Technitai 12:55, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• Richard Bartle, co-author of MUD, the first multi-user dungeon.

Never heard of him--just inventing the MUD doesn't make him all that notable as a designer.

Actually, I buy the argument that it merits inclusion. Vote to keep. Coll7 07:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Please discuss if you object to any of the pending remove/move candidates. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:12, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Also, I'm making trouble by adding to the list when you're trying to trim it! I do think Bruce Shelley's multiple accomplishments justify his presence on this list, and his credits far surpass those of the people you're recommending we cut. I added him and listed pertinent links. Your thoughts? Coll7 05:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree Shelley deserves to be on the list. I think the best thing to do at this point is just trim the ones I listed above and add them to the List of video game designers if they're not already there. Since no one but you has responded so far, I assume no one objects. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:09, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

Done. — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:47, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

Arg, I didn't see Coll7's comments until after I trimmed the list (I'm not used to seeing commentd embedded in my own posts). Let's discuss now, below, albeit a little belatedly:

• Hideo Kojima, well I've never heard of him. If he is noted in your eyes, go ahead and re-add him.
• Yu Suzuki, still never heard of him, but I'm not omnipotent. No objection to re-adding him.
• Tim Schafer, in this case, less is more, let's leave him off.
• Richard Bartle, while MUDs are an important development, he isn't all that noted. The list should include designers who themselves are noted, not just the games they helped design (IMHO).

Now that that's done, seeing the list now, I still think it is too long. I think it should be trimmed more, but that is for another day. I didn't re-add any of the designers noted above. But if Coll7 wants to do it, I won't object. — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:00, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

No worries -- what I thought of as the easiest way to read the responses may have been the worst, and I also weighed in late after you had posted. I have a tough week coming up, but I'll come back and consider which ones I'd pitch to re-include.

One other thought -- the list could benefit from being broken up into three segments: PC, Console and Historical. The first two are self-explanatory: the game design done on each platform is executed under very different conditions and aimed at different audiences. The last category is for people like Roberta Williams, Bill Budge, Richard Bartle et al who pioneered some aspect of game design, even if they don't necessarily have a sequence of follow-up titles. My two cents... Sorry if I added confusion instead of clarity, and thanks for all the time you put into this category. Coll7 20:17, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

How come Tim Schafer is still on the list? He's been voted off a couple of times. Grim Fandango is the same as Monkey Island, et al, but with better art direction, singnalling the end of the adventure game genre, not the beginning of anything...

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Wish to game designer that was overlooked

I think we should add Shigeru Miyamoto to the list. His creations are household names. (9/15/2005)

That's fine with me, for one. BTW, the correct way to sign your posts is with 4 tildes (~~~~). It works even if you don't have an account. The tildes expand into your signature after you save the edit. — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:49, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Another game programmer/designer worthy of inclusion

I think David Braben, who won the Development Legend Award 2005, is worthy a place in the list of notable game designers (or programmers?). Peter Molyneux won the first such award last year, and he is in the list.

David Braben was a pioneer in 3d graphics, and I'll quote the webpage of his company, for some of his accomplishments.

"Elite" set many firsts, and was the first genuine 3D game on home computers. Even many years after its release it is fondly remembered. For example "Probably the best computer game ever" (The Times, December 1988). It went on to sell around 1,000,000 units, and is popular still, having appeared on most popular formats.

Zarch and Virus very much raised the ante for games on the 16 bit platform. It was one of the first solid 3D games. It was the first to have 3D lighting effects and shadowing. In fact it generated the shadow silhouettes on the fly - also a first.

"Frontier" also set a number of firsts. It was the first game to have real-sized planets, where cities could be viewed from orbit, it was the first to use curved surfaces (bezier), the only game to do a palette-fit every frame to get best use of colours (Amiga and ST only), and (apart from First Encounters) is the only piece of software (games or otherwise) that attempts to simulate our entire galaxy.

"First Encounters" also had a number of firsts to its name. The detailed modelling of the geography of the planets has still probably not been surpassed, despite the relative lack of power of the target PCs at the time - ie Intel 386 machines. It was the first game to use procedural texturing to generate the vegetation, snow, etc on the planet surfaces. Mountain ranges, cliffs and wonderful alien landscapes and atmospheric effects all contributed to the atmosphere of the game, and the coloured lighting (possibly also a first?) from the redder stars gave some planets an eerie look.

He's still very productive, keeps churning out new and inventive games, and has been working on a followup to the Elite series for quite some time.

Kuros 01:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Why no reply to this yet?

Kuros 15:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the belated reply. I'd say no, but he can go on the list of video game designers. His game, while a good game, didn't influence game design to a great extent or make a huge difference on the market. Not highly notable in industry. Just my $.02... — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Names to Add

I see that the editors on this page are trying to trim this list, but with so much game history to cover I think some more names deserve mention. I suggest that these six people be added, all of whom impacted games as much as or more than many names on the list. Their omission may be because some of their contributions were longer ago, but several are still in the industry. (Their entries should be one line each like everyone else. I added more text below in support of my point.)

• Marc Blank... Led the Zork team, co-founded Infocom. Credit has to be shared with his partners, but he started an entire genre of games that influenced a decade of work
• Bill Budge... The best known game designer in North America in the first five years of the industry. Pinball Construction Set is in every game Hall of Fame that exists
• Don Daglow... Pioneer in sims, sports, RPG, MMORPG. 1 of the 7 "big names" in the ubiquitous "Guide to Game Development FAQ" (with Budge, Bunten, Crawford, Garriott, Meier & Williams)
• Kelton Flinn... Pioneer of MMOGs, co-founder of Kesmai, along with his partner did more to launch online gaming than anyone else on the planet
• Scott Orr... Designed Madden NFL, the best selling title ever in North America, many other top sports games, founded two successful game companies
• Jordan Weisman... Should go on both the paper gaming and the computer game side, which is a huge accomplishment. Between his work on classic paper games at FASA, his BattleTech work and his Alternate Reality Game work he has cast a very wide net of influence.

I know you guys have worked as a group on this page a long time by reading the History, but I hope you'll accept my recommendations.MobyMimic 06:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm okay with it, as long as their summaries, as you state, are indeed one-liners like everyone else on the mini-list. Their names should also go on the List of video game designers if they're not already there. Some of them I've never heard of before, and I've been involved with video games since the 1970s. Your list seems to be a little MMOG-heavy, but I've never been into that side of the industry, so my knowlege may be lacking in regards to them. But like I said at first, I don't object to any of them. And thanks for bringing this up here first, instead of just slapping them in and starting an edit war. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I just restored Kelton Flinn, who apparently was cut by accident when another non-notable was deleted. The discussion above is where I proposed him originally before I edited the first time. I continue to believe that his online designs were of great influence and historical importance. If you had a different reason to delete him I wanted to post this so we could discuss it. MobyMimic 05:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Also I think Hideo Kojima deserves a mention 81.159.115.127 17:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll add him to the List of video game designers if he isn't already there. — Frecklefoot | Talk 13:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Another designer to mention

Would it be possible to add Keiji Inafune, the creator of the Mega Man series and the Onimusha series to the list? To be honest, I'm surprised he hasn't been added already. (Reycount 21:14, 23 March 2006 (UTC))

You can add him to the list of video game designers, but I'd rather not include him in the list in this article, which is supposed to stay somewhat short. Thanks for bringing my attention to it--it looks like it needs some trimming again. Maybe we should just abandon it altogether and just shove them all in the list to keep people from adding their pet designers... — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

True, it might be better to just have the main list of designers instead. It would eliminate the need for disputes regarding the significance of additions, at least. Anyway, I'll add Inafune to the larger list (if it hasn't been done yet, anyway). (Reycount 02:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC))

Actually, I just looked and THAT list has gone through big-time inflation with non-notables -- the category is up to 199 names! No editor has defended it and required substantiation as Frecklefoot has here. Maybe keep this list but define a criterion for who's on it? Coll7 07:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

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Blog worthy?

I just noticed that a user linked to a game designer's blog. While I added a link to Tom Sloper's site, I really don't think moogle.net is. While this guy is a game designer, and does talk about designing games from time to time, he also talks about lots of other things too. Sloper's site has specific answers to questions, the moogle.net blog doesn't. I'm sure a great many game designers have blogs, should we link to all of them? I think it should be deleted, but I wanted to get more input first. Anyone else? — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:37, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I decided we don't need it. It's not like Richard Knight is some luminous game designer or anything (we don't even have an article on him). If he ever gets and article, we can link to his blog from there. — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Nick Burcombe

The following item has been in the "Other" list since [November 2005]:

Nick Burcombe - Designer of the ground breaking futuristic racer Wipeout for the PlayStation. Notable for using commercially licenced Compact Disc quality music from contemporary Dance music artists along with cutting-edge graphic design by The Designers Republic

First, Mr. Burcombe is a video game designer, so he was in the wrong list. Second, is someone we don't have an article for sufficiently notable?
I've deleted the text from the article. Now let's discuss putting it back. Cheers, CWC(talk) 17:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like someone's pet designer, but I remember Wip3out and it was a fairly respectable game. He could go on the List of video game designers, even without an article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Rename "Other" List?

Perhaps we should rename the "Other" list to "Notable Board Game Designers", or "Notable Card and Board Game Designers", or something along those lines? What do other people think? CWC(talk) 17:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I just couldn't think of anything elegant when I created the article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't care much for the term, but the best we can do may be "Tabletop game Designers". Or else, split it up, since at the moment it would be "Card, Board, and Role-playing Game Designers". --Rindis 14:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

A complication: Steve Jackson (US) is notable for all three of those. (I'm pretty he's won awards in all three categories.) Maybe we should just settle for "Notable Non-Computer Game Designers" ... errrk. "Notable Board/Card/Role-playing Game Designers" ... clumsy. Frecklefoot's not the only one with elegance-deprivation here. Still hoping for inspiration, CWC(talk) 07:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

A-ha! User:Frecklefoot has come up with "Notable game designers of non-video games". That's much better than anything I thought of. One further suggestion: how about "Notable designers of non-video games"? CWC(talk) 17:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Fine with me. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Done! If anyone can think of anything better, I will be very suprised. CWC(talk) 10:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Peter Molyneux

User 71.225.183.135 (talk • contribs) recently removed this item from the list of video/computer game designers:

• Peter Molyneux of the Populous series, Black and White and Theme Park among others.

I've copied it here in case we decide to put Mr Molyneux back. Should we do so? (I'm neutral.)

Cheers, CWC(talk) 11:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I put him back in. — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Changes to the "other" list 29-May-2006

Added Alan R. Moon.

He is very notable as a designer of German-style board games

Moved Michael J. Varhola to List of game designers.

Description was "founder of game manufacturer Skirmisher Publishing LLC, author of numerous game books, and creator of the Skirmish miniature wargame system"

• I'm guessing that one set of rules for miniatures does not make Mr. Varhola "notable", but then I know little about the miniatures marketplace. If Skirmish is an award-winning top seller, then we should put him back. I think he edits Wikipedia as User:Varhola, so I've left a message on User talk:Varhola.

Moved Mark H. Walker to List of game designers.

Description was "Computer book author and designer of Lock 'n' Load system; regular designer for Armchair General Magazine".

• The system is actually called Lock 'n Load (only one apostrophe).
• I've created a stub article about him.
• He has won reader's choice awards from wargamer.com, but I see no evidence of notability.

Keiji Inafune in notable list

An anon user keeps adding Keiji Inafune to the list of notable game designers. I keep reverting it, since he is on the List of video game designers. We've been through this before, but here we go again:

The list of "Notable video and computer game designers" is only for designers who are very influential, groundbreaking or very successful. It is not meant to be a comprehensive list of all video game designers. That is what the List of video game designers is for.

Since Keiji Inafune is already on that list, and he doesn't meet the criteria above, he shouldn't be on the list in this article. If you disagree, Please discuss it here first before adding it again. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Request to add

Sorry for adding one without consulting the talk page, I didn't see the warning. But I think Shinji Mikami should be added to the list, or at least replace someone. The Resident Evil series is far more popular and has sold more than many of the games whose designers are listed, such as System Shock, Age of Empires, and Diablo. Konman72 21:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. My question is, how do you know the Resident Evil series has sold more than the Diablo series. From my experience, video game publishers keep sales number pretty close to their chest. For example, they wouldn't even tell us how many copies of a game we developed sold! If and when they do release sales numbers, they'll often inflate the actual number sold (by not counting returned items and counting units delivered to stores instead of items sold through).

But the total number sold is actually beside the point. The other games listed were groundbreaking and, though may have sold fewer units, were sold when there was actually a smaller user base. For example, which is more popular: a game that sells 15 copies to 20 potential users or one that sells 500,000 to 5,000,0000 potential users? One could make arguments for either case.

Also, System Shock, Age of Empires and Diablo were very influential and were considered the best of the best when they were released. I know Resident Evil is popular, but I don't know if it has the same distinction.

I vote to keep him off the list (and he is in the List of video game designers). The list is already much longer than I had intended. But wait for others to respond—they may feel differently. — Frecklefoot | Talk 13:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Well the RE series has sold over 26 millions copies as of the end of 2004[1] and considering the best selling PC franchise of all time, The Sims, has sold just over 16 million as of 2005, I doubt the Diablo games have sold more, the last numbers I saw were 11 million for them. Also, you are forgetting about RE4, which is considered a new benchmark for action gaming. If you look at gamerankings.com's list of the 10 best games ever RE4 is on their twice while none of those other games even made it on the list[2]. It is considered one of the greatest games of its age just like the games you mention, but I would say more so (of course I have no evidence for that beyond personal experience). Konman72 23:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, since it doesn't look like anyone else is going to chime in, go ahead and add him. I've never personally played RE, but I guess that's not saying much, since I got kicked out of the video game industry several years ago. — Frecklefoot | Talk 13:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. If anyone else feels he shouldn't be on the list just delete him and we can discuss it more, I'm not adament about it or anything, I just feel his work has been under represented so I thought it would be nice to have him on the list. Konman72 00:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Added Tomonobu Itagaki

Tomonobu Itagaki is the man behind the hit series; dead or alive and ninja gaiden. now he's the president of tecmo as well. I'am going to add him the the list. If anyone don't think he should be there, we can discuss. -posted 8/09/2006 by 69.228.37.26

Well, the idea is you discuss the person before you add them, and I think you know that. I think you added him just to help ensure you didn't get voted down. That being said, I'm not going to remove him. I'm tired of fighting all the little fans of every, stinking little franchise out there. I don't think Tomonobu Itagaki is all that significant of a game designer. Was he made president of Tecmo because he's a great game designer? Probably not. He was probably made president because he showed a knack for promoting products (like his two series). If he was the World's Greatest Game Designer, the logical thing would be to keep letting him design games, not run a company, where different types of skill sets are needed.

He was already on the List of video game designers. While he deserves to be there, he certainly is not a luminary, deserving to be on the short list in this article.

By the way, sign your posts correctly (you don't do it by typing in the date). Do it with 3 or 4 tildes (~~~ or ~~~~). The latter is preferred since it also adds a timestamp (automatically). — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll remove him. Itagaki is a great game designer but neither Ninja Gaiden or DOA have truly changed gaming in any significant way. If you find someone else who thinks he should be there then we can have a discussion. Konman72 20:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I have added him back. Itagaki is notable for more than just his two famed games (Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden). His comments bring up "discussions" around gaming sites, and he is known in the Japanese entertainment circle, and a popular choice for several gaming magazine interviewers (due to his frank opinions). Jappalang 01:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It's best to discuss here first before adding any names. I agree with this addition, but your reasoning behind it needs reliable sources.--Svetovid 21:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Alexey Pazhitnov

I know the list is supposed to be kept to a minimum, but this designer seems like a no-brainer to me. Tetris is one of the best selling games of all time, and ranks in the top ten of almost every list of greatest games ever. Anyone have any objection to his addition? Konman72 11:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Tetris was a great and innovative game, but Pazhitnov seems like a one-trick pony. Tetris was the only game he successfully developed. It was mercilessly cloned and ripped off and is still being ripped-off today. I don't think his game changed or influenced game design to a great extent. Just being highly cloned doesn't make it particularly influential. If he had created a whole new branch of games or created a great deal of games that were successful and innovative, I'd say sure. But as it stands, I'd so no. He does, however, belong on the list of video game designers. Just my $.02. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

What you call cloned I call a genre lol. Tetris basically created the puzzle game genre as we know it today. Every puzzle game from Lumines to Super Puzzle Fighter II has been influenced by Tetris. It may have been a one hit wonder (except for other puzzle games that just weren't as popular) but what a hit it was! Besides, we have Tim Schafer, who is well respected and has made some excellent games, but what true impact has he had? Or Jon Freeman of the Archon series; I'm a huge gamer and have never played those games. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to state my case as best as can be, if you guys still think he shouldn't be on then I will gladly leave it be. Konman72 21:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've already put my $.02 in, I'll let other put theirs in... — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with his inclusion; a one-trick pony maybe, but a pretty darn good trick!

More Information Coverage Regarding Income & Job Security, etc...

(sorry, new to this...hope this pages correctly)

I am doing research for a college presentation on the Game Designer occupation.

It would be helpful if, like the Game programmer wiki entry, the Game Designer entry could contain information regarding income and job security.

The main resource for Income that I am using for my presentation (until I find something more credible) is http://www.animationarena.com/video-game-salary.html.

"Game Designer: video game designer with 3 years or less experience make on average $44,176 a year. Game Designers with 3-6 years of experience average $52,604 a year and Game Designer with 6 or more years of experience average $67,840 a year."http://www.animationarena.com/video-game-salary.html - (page last updated/modified on Friday, August 25, 2006 9:53:11 AM according to Firefox page info). No verification of statistical resources are cited in the article's entry unfortunately, so I caution the use of the statistics as 100% accurate. I'm sure a better source exists, and perhaps being in the know, you will know where to look.

As to the job security, I haven't a clue where else to look for such statistics for factual information.

I can take a stab at guessing and simply state that it would range from volatile to "don't count on anything after this title from us".

Thank you for reading,

TheStumps 10:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I originated this article and the game programmer article, so let me take a stab at answering you. Every year, Game Developer magazine surverys its readers about their position, salary and years of experience. I don't have the latest one on hand, but Gamasutra is its sister website that should have most of its past content. Look there. You might also want to try looking at IGDA's site.

Actually, I just looked and here is Gamasutra's article on game designer salaries (damn, I'm good!). You might be required to be registered to access it, though. Access their site, click the "Search" button and use the term "salary survey." I got many more relavent and useful hits. HTH. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I looked up that article, but it's older than the other article (Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:40:54 AM). However, I did find an updated article link through gamasutra to the Game Developer April 2005 Issue.

There is a nice graph to pull up on pg15, but I can't upload the graph simply because of my lack of full clarity on the tagging of rights and if such a web image is cleared for Wiki.

Thanks for the links and response.

TheStumps 23:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The Notables Again

I get that this list is subjective, but I'll add my two cents:

   * Chris Crawford, creator of Balance of Power and the founder of the Game Developer's Conference

The category is notable game designers, so therefore notable AS designers. GDC doesn't figure into the equation and I'm not sure Balance of Power merits his inclusion. He is best known for bitter punditry.

   * Jon Freeman, designer of the Archon series of games

I've vaguely heard of these.

   * Shinji Mikami creator of the Resident Evil series

Never heard of him. I guess the Game is notable since there've been movies?

   * Brian Reynolds, Civilization II, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri and Rise of Nations

I don't know if ghostwriting Sid Meier games gets you notoriety...

   * John Romero of Wolfenstein 3D, the Doom and Quake series and game engines

Infamy is notable too I guess... No, he should be here for his early work.

Although he's already listed as a notable level designer, which I think is more the basis of his fame.

   * Hironobu Sakaguchi of the popular Final Fantasy series

Um, yeah who? Know the games, but not the designer.

   * Bruce Shelley, co-creator of Age of Empires series and Civilization

Kind of weird partial credits

   * Warren Spector, System Shock, Deus Ex, Thief, and Thief: Deadly Shadows series

Less designer more Exec. Producer. Harvey Smith probably deserves credit for Deus Ex, at least...

   * Jordan Weisman, Founder of FASA Interactive, co-creator of BattleTech and MechWarrior

Not sure how notable the games are, Founding FASA doesn't equate to game design notoriety.

In general I'd like to register healthy skepticism with regard to an individual contributor being named as "creator" of any Japanese game, as that is not how game development works or has ever worked there and many of those listed have been long-since promoted out of design, yet are given credit as if they were still "in the trenches".

Oh, and Chris Sawyer is mentioned in the body of the article, but not in the list, which seems odd: in for a penny... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.15.3.5 (talk • contribs)

I pretty much second most of your observations, and I've said so before. But then I get blasted for being "biased" and I just gave up. This list should have maybe ten very notable designers, not the glob we have there now. — Frecklefoot | Talk 01:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

John Romero is noted as a game designer, even for work after Doom. His level design work is only secondary. Don't go back and edit your previous comments (except for obvious mistakes), add them below. — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

For Daikatana? Like I said I guess infamy is a form of notability... Sorry about the comment editing-- what you said makes sense.

He is "infamous" for Daikatana, but famous for his other (non-Daikatana) work. Look at his MobyGames profile for a sample of what he's done since Doom, Daikatana—MobyJohn. He sometimes doesn't seem as high-profile back in his id/Ion Storm days, but he is still very active. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You're sounding like a bit of a fanboy, and "active" does not equate to "notable". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.15.3.5 (talk • contribs)

A fanboy? Wow! That's the first time I've been accused of that! Really, I have no special allegience to Romero, other than respect for someone who's made such an impact on the video game industry. You've got to admit that Wolfenstein 3D and Doom were hallmark games for the computer game industry, both of which he designed. "But," I hear you say, "they were just as notable for their technology as their design." Okay, granted, but their design sure didn't hurt: they provided the framework to hang the technology on. If he had designed instead, say, a game where a bunny picks flowers instead of a game where the player shoots Nazis, would it have had an equal impact? Probably not.

I don't want to gush over Romero. I just want to make it clear that he is a notable game designer for more than the failed Daikatana. He co-founded Ion Storm, which had some pretty high profile titles, and is setting up a new studio where he probably will do more game design. Despite all this, if all he did was Wolf3D and Doom and then quit, he'd still merit inclusion in the list. Those two titles pretty much cemented his place as a noteworthy game designer and his place in the history of computer and video games.

Gosh, now I really sound like a fanboy... — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Romero is, most definitely, a notable designer and worthy of being on this list. And please refrain from using personal attacks in the future, especially one so insane as to call Frecklefoot a fanboy. Konman72 23:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll relent, I was just being curmudgeonly/ devil's advocate. As to the "personal attack", it seems to have been taken in the manner intended, which was in fun, though I will watch myself in the future. It is, however, worth noting that the other listings have not been argued... what's the statute of limitations?

Oh, and I'd like to argue for the inclusion of the Miller brothers of Myst fame. Still one of the top bestsellers of all time.

I'd argue Freeman (well, kinda, has he done anything else?); Mikami (I'm not a fan of them, but they seem fairly notable at the long distance I'm viewing at); would definately argue against dropping Sakaguchi. Wiesman, notable, but may belong on the "non-CVG" list. (At least I'd consider founding FASA more notable than founding FASA Interactive, and BattleTech started out as a board game....

Hmm. Should consider putting Sid Sackson in the "non-CVG" list... --Rindis 19:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If you must have my arguments then I would argue for the continued inclusion of Mikami, Spector, Sakaguchi and Romero. The rest I would be fine with deleting, but others may disagree. Konman72 23:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

So who's making changes and when?

Weighing in late here -- have been away. IMHO:

• Bruce Shelley is significant and influential and has impacted multiple hit franchises (Civ, Age of Empires), he's just not someone who's been publicized extensively.
• Though less so than Shelley, Reynolds has done far more important work than he is credited for.
• Spector is notable, but perhaps more as a producer than as a designer... a subtle distinction that's hard to pin down.
• Romero, Mikami, Weisman and Sakaguchi each have one important game franchise or tradition they have created. Are we drifting towards having multiple influential games be the criterion? That would affect other names on the list as well. I understand the desire to keep it tight, but we start to get into the "How do we balance one massive hit against multiple influential titles?"

Tough calls. I don't pretend to know for sure what are the right answers. Coll7 23:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

My take on all the entries. Some I'm not sure about yet, perhaps you can help me tip the scale one way or the other. Some I don't feel qualified to decide upon. Please give your input.

Name	Argument	Include
Danielle Bunten Berry	Designer of the seminal M.U.L.E. and The Seven Cities of Gold. The Sims, the best-selling computer game of all time, was dedicated to her memory	Yes
Marc Blank	Co-designer of Zork, co-founder of text adventure publisher Infocom. While certainly influential in the text adventure-era of video gaming, not sure if he has lasting relevance	Unsure
Bill Budge	Creator of Pinball Construction Set, designer who anchored launch of Electronic Arts, created a whole new genre of games, "Construction set" games	Yes
Chris Crawford	Creator of Balance of Power and the founder of the Game Developer's Conference. While the second was a notable acheivement, it's not really related to game design (though it was when he started it). However, BoP wasn't a huge commercial success and I doubt it had a lasting impact on game design. Certainly belongs on some list, but not this one.	No
Don Daglow	Designer of Dungeon, Utopia, Earl Weaver Baseball, and the original Neverwinter Nights. While all fair acheivements, I never heard of him before seeing him on this list.	No
Jon Freeman	Designer of the Archon series of games, designer of most early Epyx games	Yes
Richard Garriott (Lord British)	Developer of the Ultima series of games, a highly successful series of games, which launched Origin Systems, etc.	Yes
Ron Gilbert	Creator of Maniac Mansion and the Monkey Island series. Notable, of course, but I don't know if these acheivements really merit inclusion in the list, since they only include adventure games, a dead genre (today, they weren't then when he created the games)	Unsure
Stieg Hedlund	Designer of the Diablo series. While this is an incredibly successful series, I've never heard of the guy. Is he really the designer of the series?	Unsure
Hideo Kojima	Creator of the Metal Gear Solid series. Never played any of the MGS series, but I know it was somewhat successful. If it were up to me, I'd leave him off	You decide
Jordan Mechner	Designer of Prince of Persia, Karateka, and The Last Express. Revolutionized game animation, and influenced a generation of designers	Yes
Sid Meier	Designed Civilization, Railroad Tycoon, Pirates! and other very influentional game series	Yes
Shinji Mikami	Creator of the Resident Evil series. I'd leave him off	You decide
Shigeru Miyamoto	Designer of Donkey Kong, The Legend of Zelda and Super Mario series	Yes
Peter Molyneux	Populous series, Black and White among others	Yes
Scott Orr	Designer of original version of Madden NFL, other sports titles. While Madden is pretty successful, I wouldn't slap his name in the list simply because, even though his game series is successful, his designs aren't really all that influential or definative	No
Brian Reynolds	Civilization II, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri and Rise of Nations	Yes
John Romero	Wolfenstein 3D, the Doom and Quake series	Yes (duh)
Hironobu Sakaguchi	The popular Final Fantasy series. Know of the series, never heard of him. Anyone else?	You decide
Tim Schafer	Creator of Grim Fandango and Psychonauts. Credited as being very innovative in design, but not particularly successful or influential.	You decide
Bruce Shelley	Co-creator of Age of Empires series and Civilization	Yes
Warren Spector	System Shock, Deus Ex, Thief, and Thief: Deadly Shadows series. The Thief series essentially created the "sneaker" genre of games	Yes
Jordan Weisman	Founder of FASA Interactive, co-creator of BattleTech and MechWarrior. Who cares about founding FASA Interactive since it isn't directly related to game design? The other two items, well, I have no idea.	You decide
Roberta Williams	Designer of King's Quest and several other computer game series. Very influential and innovative. Very prominent	Yes
Will Wright	Designer of SimCity and The Sims	Yes

— Frecklefoot | Talk 22:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Frecklefoot, you seem to be a PC gamer mostly (correct me if I'm wrong) so I will try to explain a couple of your "you decides". Hideo Kojima....he is a god. Plain and simple, ask any true console gamer about him and they will know of him and his fantastic work. The MGS series redefined gaming in many ways and continues to do so today with MGS4 being one of the most hotly anticipated titles ever. Shinji Mikami made the survival horror genre, plain and simple. If you play Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Fatal Frame or any other game where big scary things try to kill you then it was influenced by his creation. Resident Evil was a huge turning point in gaming history and the series has done it again with RE4 which is now the defacto standard for all action games (look at a list of the action games that came out after it and you will easily see a steady progression toward them all becoming just like it). Also RE4 places twice in gameranking.com's list of top 10 games of all time, once for the gamcube version and again for the PS2. Both of these not only deserve to be on this list but must if we want to be neutral (between PC and console). As far as Tim Schafer goes, that really is up to debate. He has created a few titles that hardcore gamers will remember fondly but has yet to actually impact the industry in any significant way. Just thought I would try to help you understand where I am coming from here. It actually shocked and surprised me that these two, Kojima and Mikami, could even be up for debate given their huge contributions to the industry, but I also understand (if you haven't been a big console gamer then I guess their impact could be muted). Konman72

Frecklefoot, I see lots of articles where you have made contributions here, so I don't disagree with you lightly. Nevertheless, IMHO I have to say your list feels very inconsistent, which may not be surprising if we only consider the experiences of any one editor. Freeman, for example, has not impacted gaming since the mid-1980s and had only a short period of prominence, but he gets a "Yes". People who have had lots of publicity in North America all get "yes." More influential people than some yes names above like Kelton Flinn have already been cut. Less publicized people like Reynolds (debated elsewhere here) gets a "yes", but more influential people like Orr and Daglow get "no" and Weisman gets a "you decide." I don't claim that my opinions taken solely as the basis for a decision would be perfect, but I really strongly disagree with your list. This set of changes would be FAR more inaccurate than just leaving what we have now. MobyMimic 05:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

My own input on this:

Stieg Hedlund || Designer of the Diablo series. No. Unless he designed something other than Diablo, he doesn't really deserve a spot unless there's space. We should have preference for designers that made consistently notable games, not people who made one notable game.

I would also recommend the addition of Timothy Cain and Chris Avellone. Timothy Cain is most famous for his work on Fallout (computer game), of which he was a major designer. He co-founded Troika Games and helped design Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura and the other Troika games. He was a key figure of the Interplay/Black Isle Studios era of computer RPG gaming. See History of computer role-playing games. He is well known for innovation and his games have almost cult status (i.e. see the famous No Mutants Allowed site). Chris Avellone was another important BIS designer and helped design Fallout 2, Knights of the Old Republic II, and most famously Planescape: Torment. His games are influential (i.e. Bioware is known to have picked up some of their designs) and innovative (i.e. created the "Influence" system for NPCs).

Most of our discussion is useless until the term "notable game designer" is defined though (in addition to "influence" and "innovation" and how to measure these two). -- Solberg 07:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)Solberg

As I pointed out below, we do have list of video game designers for all game designers. The list in this article is really meant to be brief, mean to include just the most notable in the field. As it is, it is already too long for my tastes. If we include everyone's favorites, it'd just be too long and, at that point, useless. So, thank you for including your justifications above. It'll be useful while we try to include the most deserving candidates. Please continue to participate in this discussion.

That being said, everyone, how should we proceed? Should we vote on candidates? Or debate over each one individually? — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you comprehend what I just wrote? This discussion won't go anywhere unless we define what exactly is "influence" and "innovation," which of these has priority, and how to determine them. It's not trivial-- I thought influence = how many people later copy your game's core gameplay and features, but apparently according to your earlier remark about Tetris, this isn't your view. What is influence? Does cross-genre influence matter or not, for example, or is it fair to say that the influence of a game need not extend outside its own genre? Some genres export more features to other genres than other genres (i.e. traditionally stats and skills from RPGs to FPS (eg Deus Ex and System Shock), adventure games (eg Grim Fandango and Monkey Island) typically have not had much influence on other genres, etc). Is innovation without influence still notable, however great? How does fame factor into this? You dismissed Daglow mainly because you didn't hear of him before this-- is such an argument sufficient? How important is historical significance? I'd argue for example that Freeman does not belong on the list other than from a historical POV. How many modern games has Archon influenced? A vote would be unfair btw, because of the small sample of people here and their biases (judging from the list, very biased towards PC designers). I recommend setting up some objective criteria at the very least before voting so that it's not just an argument of "OMG, I know his name, therefore he must be notable!!" -- Solberg 19:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)Solberg

[Diablo]'s a series, not a single game, and one that's sold 17M units worldwide. [Stieg Hedlund] also has other pretty notable credits, such as StarCraft and Die Hard Arcade. I think lists like this get tough because fewer and fewer games are really the result of one person's design, but I'd still argue for his inclusion.67.161.53.9 00:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

That was kind of rude

Don't tell me the notice you're talking about is the one embedded in the actual page itself. If there is a notice on the talk page it isn't obvious and is probably buried under all the tangential threads. The embedded notice doesn't indicate what was the criteria other than notability, and within the computer RPG genre both Avellone and Cain are very notable. Are you using some type of 'objective' criteria, i.e. google results, and if so, what exactly? Regardless, I think it was kind of rude to revert without giving an actual explanation on the talk line. Putting up an embedded sign that says "May be reverted without warning" isn't really a sufficient excuse for this type of behavior. It should be amended to indicate that the reverter should at the very least provide some rationale. At any rate, I think both Timothy Cain and Chris Avellone deserve to be on the list. Give me an actual reason or I'll revert. -- Solberg 04:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Scroll up, this has been in discussion for some time now. If you disagree then I suggest you provide your reasons there. Konman72 06:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

And I see you did add your reasons to the discussion above. However, I didn't just remove them, I added them to the List of video game designers as well, as I usually do. They most certainly deserve to be there, whether or not they deserve to be on the "notable" list in the article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hideo Kojima

I didn't remove him (an anon user did), but I agree with the removal of Hideo Kojima. He is on the List of video game designers, but I wouldn't call him all that "notable". I've never, ever, heard of him, and I've been in the video game industry for 14 years. Yes, I've heard of the Metal Gear Solid series, but not him personally. — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

How could you not have heard of him? MGS was revolutionary and has basically shaped the action and stealth genre that we see today. Removing him would be insane if you ask me, he is one of the most notable game designers out there (when the trailer for a game gets its biggest cheer when his name is revealed you know he is big). This may, and again correct me if I'm wrong, be another consequence of your PC centric view, you have not heard of him while I have never heard of Stieg Hedlund or Bruce Shelley; also I would argue and I think most would agree with me, that MGS is far more noteworthy and important than Diablo or Age of Empires. In the console world Hideo Kojima is up there with Miyamoto. Konman72 02:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm proud of my PC-centric view and if it means I miss out on a few console-centric series, that's fine by me. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Gunpei Yokoi?

Here's a great designer we forgot. He designed Metroid, Kid Icarus, Game & Watch and of course the gameboy itself. Died 1997 in car crash. I feel he's worth adding. 60.241.114.119 11:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Having a paternal interest in this article, I must state again I really think the list should be as short as possible (and, because of that, I think it is already too long). It is only meant to be a sampling of some famous game designers. It was never meant to be exhaustive. Many great and notable designers don't appear in the article, but all—all—appear in the list of video game designers. If they are notable enough to have an article, they appear on that list. Gunpei Yokoi is on that list and has been for some time. — Frecklefoot | Talk 12:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Where? 60.241.114.119 08:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The Miller brothers!

I'm surprised to see that Robyn and Rand Miller are not on the list of notable game designers. Surely what they did with Myst must be considered notable, both the quality of the game(s) and the public response to it. AFAIK, Myst was the best selling computer game for about 9 (!) years, before the Sims outsold them. I'm not entirely sure if the list is supposed to be of game designers who did something groundbreaking, or game designers who "happened" to have a hit, or even game designers who are simply skilled; either way, the Millers definitely do qualify IMO! 84.217.129.6 18:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Satoshi Tajiri

Come on he is a great man. He created Pokémon! Pokémon is the second most popular series in history! Lets add him pleas:)69.125.21.252 22:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I just reverted him. He is already on the List of video game designers. The list is meant to be short, not to list every single video game designer that ever lived or ever will live. The cartoon series and collectible card games were incredibly popular, but I don't think the video games were historic. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Al Lowe

Would Al Lowe be OK to add to the list of notable video game designers? 156.34.222.226 01:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

No. Just one series that, while popular, didn't influence the industry much. He's probably already on the big list. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 12:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Other game designers

Why doesn't the article discuss other types of game designers such as board games? 156.34.222.226 01:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Because nobody bothered to write down such information.--Svetovid 11:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 12:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

LOL, OK I'll rephrase that: The article really should discuss other types of game designers. 156.34.220.171 00:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

It does list them, near the bottom. Anyone is welcome to discuss them specifically. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 17:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

God of War David Jaffe

Why isnt David Jaffe on the list. Hes only created the greatest ps2 game of all time 'god of war' with an equally awesome sequel... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.236.23.198 (talk) 12:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, the opinion that he "created the greatest ps2 game of all time" is POV, that is, subjective. He is on the big list. We won't include all well known game designers on the list in this article because it isn't meant to be exhaustive. It is just meant to be a sampling of well known video game designers. The separate list covers them all. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 17:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Oki fair enough thankyou for responding :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.236.23.198 (talk) 07:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean. I noticed nearly all the names on the list are game designers known for making games that at the time they were made were truely innovative (such as Civilization or Wolfenstein) or spawned a lot of other similar games. If I understand correctly, I think Frecklefoot is saying that while GOW was popular, it wasn't necessarily innovative, and it's perhaps too soon to tell if it will spawn a lot of games similar to it. I was confused before for why someone would revert the addition of him to the list, which seemed like a perfectly fine edit. Kevin (talk) 19:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)