Talk:Gandy dancer/Archives/2015

Jelly roll

The source for the term "jelly roll" has twice been removed. Please explain. Gandydancer (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@Gandydancer: Urban Dictionary is a totally unreliable source, and Wikipedia should almost never cite it. Moreover, in this case the citation is confusingly not even being used to support any of the information in the article. In your edit summary, you said "readers need to understand that in this case 'jelly roll' means 'pussy' rather than a cake filled with jelly" - that sounds reasonable to me, and that's why I added the wikilink to Wiktionary, which gives "The female genitalia" as one of the definitions of "jellyroll". If you still feel that a citation to Urban Dictionary is preferable to a wikilink to Wiktionary, I would appreciate it if you could explain why. Thanks. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:34, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

In this case I much prefer the Urban Dictionary and will bring the issue to RS help if need be. BTW, using the link you added I get this page [1] which does not use the female genitalia wording. Gandydancer (talk) 14:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

If you follow the link on that page, you will reach https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jellyroll , which specifies "The female genitalia" as one of the definitions. If you would prefer to link directly to that entry, that would be fine with me. Could you please explain why you think the Urban Dictionary citation is acceptable, let alone preferable? —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:07, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure. I want the Urban Dictionary because it gives an in your face link with an example of it in use in an old blues tune and a note that it is not related to Jelly Roll Morton. Any number of modern slang words and phrases date right back to this early era of black musicians and singers playing/singing black music and I want the "right" dictionary, the slang dictionary to be used in this article. If you insist that the Urban Dictionary is not appropriate for the way I have used it here I will bring it to the RS questions page. However, I hope that as the creator of a great deal of this article you will not force me into doing that. Gandydancer (talk) 17:31, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. By "the RS questions page", I assume you mean WP:RSN. Urban Dictionary has been brought up before on that noticeboard, and consensus has found that it is not a reliable source. Here's one discussion, for example: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_37#Urban_Dictionary_is.2Fis_not_a_Reliable_Source. I think this is pretty obvious—you're an experienced editor, and I'm sure you know as well as I do what qualifies as a reliable source.

Here's a possible compromise: We can replace the Urban Dictionary citation with a footnote, which would be more "in your face" than a wikilink, mentioning that "jelly roll" is a slang term for the vulva. We could also mention that it's not related to Jelly Roll Morton, if we can find a reliable source for that, and the ties to black musicians and any other information that you feel is important. How does that strike you? —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:53, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

There's your source: p. 135. Note the meaning can be a little vague, cock or pussy depending on context. trespassers william (talk) 10:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Granger. Well of course, I'm not happy since the present link is correct and it's not a matter of needing good RS to prove whether or not the meaning is "pussy". But a note would be better than a dictionary definition. There is this: [2]As for the Jelly Roll Morton, I'm not insisting that we need to include that - it just happened to be included in the slang source. Gandydancer (talk) 13:24, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I've replaced the citation with a note. Feel free to modify or expand it to include additional information. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:41, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Very nice, thanks. Gandydancer (talk) 14:00, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

A good book

I had to remove this link from the article, but it really sounds like a good book! I'll include the site here:

Military cadence calls

I have been working on a new section re cadence calls as I think it is related. It was deleted. I'd like to discuss it. Gandydancer (talk) 00:20, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

sure. It had no connection to gandy dancing - the closest was an unsourced sentence at the end saying that the guy might have heard something at a sawmill. It was speculation at best, which is suitable for an essay or discussion on a history site, but not wikipedia. If you can establish an actual connection, with an independent source, then it would be great, but otherwise it's just somebody making guesses.- DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:45, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for feedback. It is late here and I'm done for the night but I will get back to this tomorrow. Gandydancer (talk) 01:50, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I was not actually done when you deleted the new section and planned to do more research and writing, but at any rate I have rewritten the section to satisfy your concerns. Gandydancer (talk) 13:44, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

BTW, it has been a long time since I worked on this article. A lot of research went into finding information (and most of the searching turned up very little) and the article was put together as new information came to light. I plan to go through the article as time permits and perhaps improve it to GA status. Gandydancer (talk) 14:51, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, but I've got to say, that's an very thin connection between Duckworth and gandy dancing - we have one source who says Duckworth might have heard them and been influenced, yet the source's own quote says the calls came from his experience in a sawmill, not a railroad. I still don't see that it belongs in this article, although I won't remove it. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:19, 18 July 2015 (UTC)