Talk:Ganon/Archive 2

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Should we...

Add a picture of Drawn Together's Ganon parody and the animated Ganon? ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 00:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should. That character hardly warrants a mention on Drawn Together's character page. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 02:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Lead Picture for this article.

This is a dispute as to which of the two predominant portrayals of Ganon should be shown as the lead picture for the article. 20:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• I think that while the humanoid portrayal of Ganon is important, the image belongs with the games he appears in, and as the predominant version of the character, the pig-form should remain the lead picture. This both avoids image clutter and remains accurate in my opinion. -- Digital Watches! 20:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Comments

better ganon

if pepole are complaining about the pic of ganon being "goofy" and others saying its his most common form why ot get a diffrent ganon thats not so "goofy" but still ganon (im only saying a ider im not trying to be pov-ish) Sailor cuteness 19:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

He's called Ganon in every game and Ganondorf in about half. It's like Prue vs. Prudence - same name, same person. Also, you don't want to be implying any connection between the games - that would be OR.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 00:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

i know there the same im just saying use a diffrent ganon picture as the main one because pepole are saying they dont like that ganon but others want a ganon picture Sailor cuteness 18:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The situation is already being resolved as we are calling in a third party moderator to resolve the situation. If one isn't found within a few days, I am personally going to try and find one. Mrobinson587 06:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

cool hopefuly that will solve the problem once and for all Sailor cuteness 19:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

To those who are saying that Ganondorf has died and Zant died due to the life connection.

That's speculation. Leaving this ambiguous until it can be elaborated upon is the best course of action, so please stop. -Chao9999 05:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Categories

Has the category of Fictional sadists been deleted or re-named? If so why? And might I suggest installing Ganon into the category of Fictional psychopaths?

It was deleted for being too subjective to define. Fictional psychopaths wouldn't apply to Ganon properly anyway. ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 14:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Good lord, they are getting fussy aren't they. What makes you say Fictional psychopaths wouldn't apply properly to Ganon, might I enquire?

Anon

Because it's very hard to establish if the character displays classic psychopathy. It's an extremely complex condition. Assuming Ganon to be such would be WP:OR, unless there is an in-game line which specifies Ganon is such.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 23:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

True, but he definately displays a few characteristics, such as; superficial charm and average or above [in his case the latter] intelligence, absence of delusions or other signs of irrational thinking, absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations, untruthfulness and insincerity, lack of remorse or shame, antisocial behaviour without apparent compunction and pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love. You could say he has failure to learn from experience seeing as he always seems to make the same basic evil villain mistakes every time, bragging about how brilliant he is when he should just be killing Link. Mull these things over then get back to me.

Anon

I'm not disputing that - but unless he's identified by a reputable external source (e.g. a game creator calling him a psychopath or a sadist) or in-game, then coming to that conclusion would be original research which sadly Wikipedia can't have! Sorry. ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 22:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Quite alright. Point taken. I rest my case.

Anon

Ganon is not really a psychopath. If you want evidence of that, go back to Wind Waker. That game showed he's not some sadistic demon who wants to conquer for no reason. He wants to beacuse of the land he grew up in, a death spawned desert. I agree with you in that he's showed characteristics of the category, but it's not enough to actaually categorize him as a psychopath. Also,he never really brags either, and is actaually one of the few villians who never gives up the chance to kill Link. Remember, he needs Link and Zelda alive in order to obtain their Triforce pieces. Ganondorf's thinking is rational, very evil, but rational.-Darknessofheart

I know his thinking is rational but my chain of reasoning was that psychopaths thinking is evil but rational as well. Absence of delusions or other signs of irrational thinking is one of the characteristics. Basically psychopathy is supreme intelligence unregulated by remorse or shame. Some other things to think about are that just because he wants to conquer the world because he had a terrible childhood doesn't make him less sadistic or demonic. Nevertheless I suppose you're right about everything else and he isn't really a psychopath.

It's not a matter of if he is or isn't. It's just that to decide would be Original Research, unless the game or a creator were to explicitly state he is a psycho/sociopath/sadist.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 13:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I suppose

Anon

Twilight Princess

This section is far too big, because it seems as soon as someone plays it they rush to Wikipedia to add everything they know about it. It needs shrinking lots, so I added the {{plot}} template to it. The plot of Twilight Princess should be covered there. May I also direct everyone's attention to articles such as Characters in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time#Ganondorf, Characters in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess#Ganondorf, Characters in The Legend of Zelda series#Ganon.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 13:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. If you don't mind I've shortened the Character Depiction section a little, keeping it on a need-to-know basis. Might I add that Ganon is not only known as the King of Evil as the opening paragraph states. He is known as the Prince of Darkness in the first Legend of Zelda game or the other way around (King of Darkness, Prince of Evil) I've put in a note on this but someone keeps removing it.

Anon

Thank you so much, Digital Watches (talk · contribs) I didn't want to do it myself since Play.com is being a bitch and have delayed my Twilight Princess. Anon, considering registering! Also, I'm taking your edits to the depiction sentence, might tie in somewhere. They don't work for the lead in. ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 22:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Enough is enough.

I don't care if the picture should be pig-form or human-form. The fact of the matter is, that picture is not Ganon. As much as the debate currently leands toward having a pig-form as the main image, unless some one provides a valid pig-form image, a human-form would be more efficient. I know you're trying to get a 3rd party moderator for the main debate, but for now just change it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.12.132.100 (talk) 01:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

Clearly that picture is Ganon. Who the hell else would it be? Leave it alone. 199.126.137.209 04:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Source please, dude. -- Digital Watches! 04:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

If you had actually played the game that thing is from, you would know it wasn't Ganon. But thanks for trying.

I've played the Oracles through more than probably a majority of the gaming population, and I can safely say that the OoA/OoS Ganon is indeed Ganon. Twinrova says "Our rites have failed, but by sacrificing this body, Ganon will return!", while Zelda also says "Since they could not sacrifice me in their final rite, the powers of darkness could only revive a mindless, raging Ganon." In other words, that is Ganon, just "mindless." It is the SAME "body." They did revive Ganon, and that picture illustrates him just fine. EllipsesBent 00:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It's basically zombie Ganon. It IS the same body, but it's not the same character. It's kinda like saying that Riku is the same person as Ansem Riku (Though not quite the same, since that's a case of possession). 68.161.140.186 01:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Hi! I'm AMIB. I understand you have something of a dispute over the image that's being used in the lead. I'm here to mediate this dispute, and rest assured that I personally couldn't care less about whether Ganon is a pig or a guy, or if it's properly Ganon or Ganondorf, or any of that. This doesn't mean I'm not familiar with these arguments, just indifferent.

To kick things off, I've removed the image entirely. I feel this may be the best solution; Ganon's appearance changes a great deal from game to game. Without an image in the lead, it elimiate the dispute entirely, and all of the images are with the text explaining that particular incarnation.

One of two things will happen. This solution will find consensus, and the dispute will be resolved. Alternately, this solution will be universally hated, in which case everyone has a good motivation to get this dispute resolved so we can put a single, non-contentious image in the lead, because there isn't going to be any image while it's a matter of revert wars.

How does this sound? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Having no image is better than that God-awful, not even really Ganon image that was up before. Hopefully this whole thing will eventually get resolved, though this does make a good temporary solution. 65.12.132.100 07:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The pig picture is a better portrayal of Ganon throughout the series. A lot of fans want to associate the character only with his recent home console humanoid depictions, and seem to even argue that the "pig form" isn't even the same character. There is, what some see as an OoT bias or perhaps now since this month a TP bias, where people want the article to reflect their favourite game. A lot of (mostly unregistered) users seem to feel that a human Ganon is the "original" or "actual" form (OR, this article should be free of timeline theories) or that his Ocarina of Time depiction is the "best" or most accurate. I feel that for a character who from game to game changes quite a lot, and is depicted rather differently, the most common depiction of the character serves the article better when taking into account that all the games are equally "canon" and whatnot.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 13:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you read that post right. He never said anything against your usual debate, he was noting that that particular picture isn't Ganon. 68.161.140.186 01:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

How about a compromise: a picture that shows him in his Ganondorf and Ganon forms (with each labeled as such). Jeff Silvers 16:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Just lurking around, but I'm guessing at least part of what 65.12.132.100 means is that the Oracle Ganon was a fairly strange situation. Just the same, even if the character was crazier than usual at the time, the image accurately reflects his look.

That's probably what he meant. However, we shouldn't just throw in pictures that "accutrately reflect" the character's look. We should have pictures of the actual character. 68.161.140.186 01:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

While I'm giving my $0.02, I personally like the idea of a dual picture. I'd also point out that the lead Link and Princess Zelda pictures are currently taken from the most recent official art depictions of the characters, so perhaps we can draw some inspiration from those articles? --Sparky Lurkdragon 18:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Link and Zelda have one appearance, adapted to fit the style of the latest artist and the latest game. Ganon has two different appearances, each of which is reinterpreted for each game in which it appears. Link and Zelda are dissimilar.

As for two images, no. There's no reason to have two fair-use images to identify this character in the lead when zero suffice. (Resolving an argument isn't a sufficient fair-use rationale.) One or none. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:37, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that zero doesn't suffice, and really, neither does one. If only Ganon is shown, you're neglecting an important half of the character, and the same is true if only Ganondorf is shown. What I'm proposing isn't technically two images; it's one image that represents both equally-important sides of a single character. Jeff Silvers 08:12, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Zero suffices just fine. We can put an appropriate image with the discussion of each different appearance. No need to duplicate in the lead. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, considering that the more recent games have revealed that Ganon is a transformation (fact) should be enough to qualify Ganondorf as the main part of the character, especially since he's Ganon in only like, 3 more games. And, from the idea of using the Zelda and Link as inspiration, I think it's a good idea. Link and Zelda both change in appearance either slightly or majorly in games, and Ganon does as well, although Ganondorf changes largely. We can either use the Wind Waker art to keep in quality, a screenshot from TP to keep the appearance up to date, or, for Ganon, a screenshot from TP as well. Using both forms in one pic is also a good idea, and I'd suggest that, due to lack of Ganon art, we'd use screenshots. If so, we could have the TP Ganon pic, and then TP Ganondorf pic, with the caption being "Ganon in his more common monster form (left), and his humanoid form (right). I'd also like to point to my topic for the picture down below, which states the facts about this situation. I agree that the no pic idea suffices, but I will say that it should be saved as a last resort. -Chao9999 23:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, what the heck? Why is the dual pic on the article removed? That showed both forms, could solve the image dispute, and seemed to be working fine. I saw no complaints. *sobs* And I actually did some image work too... -Chao9999 00:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Mention of the Dragmire surname

I added this passage earlier today:

The American A Link to the Past instruction manual gives his full name as Ganondorf Dragmire, though the Dragmire surname never appears in the game or any later work.

After another member added "It is probable that Ganondorf Dragmire was his human name before he became the King of Evil," the full passage was removed without explanation. I've re-added the original sentence as I wrote it, as it contains no speculation or misinformation, and merely presents a relevant fact about the character (while acknowledging that it was never again referenced). Jeff Silvers 15:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, sorry. It was the second line I had a problem with. Sorry.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 18:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Images we could use for main image

• Image:Lightmovedshadow.jpg
• Image:Ganonoot2.jpg
• Image:Ganontp2.jpg
• Image:Ganondorfsmile.jpg
• Image:Ganondorfduel.jpg

Opinions? Also, I really think this page should be moved to Ganondorf Dragmire. Ganondorf is his real name, A Link to the Past states Dragmire is his last name. -- Bly1993 19:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

If they're not still using it, I don't see why we should move the page to something less recognizable. I think if we're to use any of those pictures, it should be the last one, but only as a new image for the Twilight Princess section. We don't really need a lead image if no one can agree on what it should be. -- Digital Watches! 20:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

All those images are awful. Sorry. In-game stuff... blech. Also? Ganon is his name as much as "Ganondorf Dragmire" is. Ganon is ALWAYS given as his name. This is not a tv show - Zelda continuity doesn't work like that, it's very disputed, even down to if every portrayal of a character is indeed the same person.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 20:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It has been confirmed countless times that all the Ganons are the same person, and that there is a conuity (The continuity doesn't make sense IMO, but that's from Miyamato's mouth). Not saying that we should change the article to that, but just letting you know.68.161.140.186 01:50, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I still say that a Ganondorf/Ganon combo image is the best way to go, as it not only solves the debate, but also effectively illustrates both sides of this dichotomous character. As far as moving this article to Ganondorf Dragmire, the Dragmire surname is only used once: in the American A Link to the Past instruction manual. It isn't mentioned anywhere else, including the game itself. Ganon, on the other hand, appears in every game Ganondorf does. I think it's best we leave it here. Jeff Silvers 21:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I've been looking around to find something about "Dragmire" and so far all the sources I've seen say it was a translation error of the original Link To The Past instruction manual. Since Ganondorf Dragmire and Mandrag Ganon were not included in the rerelease of the game for GBA, it's pretty safe to assume they retconned it out. Dracokanji 14:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

First backstory?

The intro says that Ganon/Ganondorf first received a backstory in Ocarina of Time. Shouldn't this actually be A Link to the Past, where his being sealed away and his former life as a thief are mentioned? Jeff Silvers 11:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

This is true. It was only heavily elaborated upon in Ocarina. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 11:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Fictional dictators

Ganon was the dictator of Hyrule for a while and aspires to be sole ruler of the world so whomsoever keeps removing him from this category please give a reason as to why.

(Sign your posts). I think it's fairly hard to assess that, and massively adding categories to a page does more harm than good. -- Digital Watches! 21:12, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Not if the categories are actually relevant. Jeff Silvers 00:26, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

This is bad

What the hell is happening to this article. Now, there is no picture at all, the picture of Ganon in the A Link to the Past section is in accurate and not how he appears in that game, the information, is confusing and not told well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.115.34.186 (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

What information is confusing? Jeff Silvers 18:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It's confusing in the sense that a person seeking information in the game won't get the main concpets. The information given in the artical jumps around too much. It goes from one concept and straight to another that seems so different that readers will wonder if it is actually revelant to the information given prior to that. Alot of the information also seems a little slanted. An example would be the Wind Waker portion, when it says that Ganondorf manipulates the events in the game in order to get Link to pull the master sword from its' resting place. Though I agree that Link pulling the master sword was part of his plot, I don't see how Ganon manipulated any event in the game. It seems he didn't know how Link would reclaim the blade and was sending his monsters to conquer. I think his actions in the game were to control the islands of the ocean as well as the sea itself, and not part of an elaborate method of manipulating events to get Link to pull the sword. He lives to conquer, so sending his monsters to attack and take over islands in elaborate methods just to get Link to defaet them and reclaim the sword seems pointless for him, he is afterall a warlord who seeks to conquer. Also, I know that alot of people prefer the artical to be shorter, but this is insane. Four sentences per game. That's hardly enough room to give information on his role in the games to a good extent-Darknessofheart

Ideas

I see you people have a problem finding an image for this article. Well I say we should do it a fair way and vote. First we have to vote to see if you want ganon, or ganondorf. Please post(and say why).

Doesn't work that way; Wikipedia is not a democracy. Jeff Silvers 12:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what's wrong with a vote. I personally think we should have the Ocarina picture at the top. Whhich one do you people think we should use. Then we can chose the main two contestants for top spot at the end of the week.

Anon

The problem is that we don't reach decisions based on majority rule at Wikipedia, we reach them based on general consensus. There is already an active discussion (a few, actually) on this talk page concerning which image should be used; if you wish to express your opinion, you should do so in those discussions (and don't forget to sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~). Jeff Silvers 15:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It was just a thought. I can't do that four tildes thing because I'm not registered, I never saw the point.

Anon

If you aren't registered, it just prints your IP address, which is still useful as identification in discussion pages such as this one. Jeff Silvers 19:06, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Pig image

I'm sorry, but I have a question: I've added the image back to the article as his image of A Link to the Past. I went to ZeldaDungeon, the source of the image, to confirm it was from LttP, but I didn't find it in any of the games' sections. Now I've seen people refering to it as his image from Oracles, although he looks exactly like the Ganon from LttP. Can someone please confirm from which game it is? And I apologize if I got it wrong.

A Google image search returns this as the first result for Ganon "Link to the Past". It isn't the same image that is currently described in the article as being from LttP, but the design is nearly identical. Jeff Silvers 23:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Quotes

Would anyone mind me [the great Anon] adding a section for memorable lines that Ganon has said. After all the fella has said some quite dramatic things in his time. I added a Memorable quotes section but someone removed it.

the aforementioned great Anon—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.240.105 (talk • contribs)

It's called Wikiquote. So, no. ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 01:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah but Wikiquote doesn't have an article on Ganon.

Anon

q:The Legend of Zelda series~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 01:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

True, but not one on Ganon himself.

Anon

He doesn't really need one. Just add the quotes to the proper game sections in the Zelda series article. Jeff Silvers 12:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Very well then, I suppose you know best.

Anon

Ganon is Ganondorf

Someone was debating the possibility of Ganon and Ganondorf being one person. I think someone might have already said this, but I agree with that statement in some respect. I would think that people who played through Twilight Princess would be able to realize that Ganon is the alternate form of Ganondorf. Link turns into a wolf (A sign for bravery and courage) in the Twilight realm, a sign that he is one chosen by the gods (Triforce of Courage). Would it really be that hard to believe that a boar (A sign of greed and power) would be the animalistic image assigned to the one who was chosen by the Triforce of Power? That would explain where Ganon came from and where he falls as far as characters are concerned. I know a lot of die-hard Ganon fans might be upset by this, but it seems that is how the plot falls. The only reason the name Ganon is used anymore is because up until now, Ganon was the only form Link ever fought. Calling Ganondorf Ganon would be like calling Wolf Link "Skippy" and saying Link is really Skippy in the guise of a human. If my viewpoint is accepted already, maybe some changes should be made in the sections where Ganondorf is reffered to as "Ganon." Commander Regulus 07:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

And I think that's a whole heaping helping of original research. The only times we've seen Ganondorf referred to as such, yes, he has transformed into Ganon. Yes, they are the same person/thing/being/whatever. However, uniformly changing the naming scheme is ridiculous. The games themselves refer to him as one or the other as appropriate for the situation as has been decided by the creators of the games. Ergo, there's no reason to refer to him as Ganondorf in instances where he was referred to in-game as Ganon. -- Digital Watches! 07:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I wasn't saying throw Ganon out, I'm just saying that I thought I saw some instances where Ganondorf was being discussed in particular and they referred to him as Ganon. It can just get confusing when people (mis)use the name interchangeably, because if someone says, "Ganon chased after Impa and Zelda on horseback," people get the idea of a giant pig-like thing riding a horse. It's not too terribly important, but it might present confusion to people new to the series. Commander Regulus 19:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, you know he may have a point.

Anon

Agreed. Since Nintendo seems to want to refer to him as Ganondorf when and only when he's humanoid, it's a bit odd to use "Ganon" under those circumstances, and vice versa. -- Digital Watches! 21:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, the names are pretty much interchangeable. Wind Waker and Twilight Princess use the names to refer both to his human and beast forms. Even in OoT where he's human for pretty much the whole game, his castle is named Ganon's Castle while he's still human. I don't think there's enough solid proof to say Ganon is just the name of his beast form and Ganondorf is just the name of his human form. 199.126.137.209 21:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's easy to say that "Ganondorf" never refers to his beast form (to my knowledge, this has never been so), though yeah, Ganondorf is sometimes referred to as "Ganon" (the aforementioned Ganon's Castle example from OoT; the possessed Zelda from Twilight Princess is called "Ganon's Puppet." Jeff Silvers 01:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

All articles for people named Sam should be renamed to Samuel immediately! We will not stand for this! [/sarcasm]~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 01:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

never i want my name to remaing sam sailor cuteness-ready for love 15:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

You know Zythe, you're really quite an entertaining fellow once somebody gets to you.

Anon

Not sure how relevant this is to the article (and it's probably original research, anyway), but it dawns upon me now that Ganondorf never refers to himself as Ganon. Other characters refer to his beast form exclusively as Ganon and his human form interchangeably as Ganon or Ganondorf, but Ganon/dorf himself never does this. The only time Ganon is used is when other characters are speaking or when names show up on screen. I haven't finished The Wind Waker yet (just recently purchased it), but thus far, everybody has called him Ganon while he seems to be the only one using Ganondorf. Jeff Silvers 04:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Well if you can find an example or quote of Ganon referring to himself as Ganondorf (eg: "Give up, you're no match for the great Ganondorf" or something like that) I'm sure we'd all be happy to take that into account. Nevertheless Morgoth from The Silmarillion refers to himself as Melkor but all the other characters refer to him as Morgoth and so that is the name of the article on him.

When Link first meets him in The Wind Waker, he says, "I am Ganondorf." Jeff Silvers 19:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, good point.

Anon

Twilight Princess redesign

I seriously think we need a better picture of the Twilight Princess Ganondorf. The picture that's already there doesn't show his whole body, nor does it show his face very well. Can anyone please find some official art or something? All I've been able to find are choppy screenshots and fan art.SilentWind 20:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Is their a way of getting a picture from the TV? IS it legal to just take a camera picture? Cause I'll get a few if you want them. Sorry if this is a obvious question (still not used to Wiki editing yet). UltimateNagash (can't even get my user name link working...) 22:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I have the official art of Ganondorf holding his sword from TP -- I just don't know how to post it here. If someone could just tell me how, I'd be glad to post it. Teamrocketspy621 15:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Been asked enough but...

Has a definante picture of Ganon been picked yet? I say we just use the most recent picture of Ganon (The beast, not the human) we can find. (Same thing was done for Link and Zelda, why should Ganon be any different.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.200.22.77 (talk) 02:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Because Link's and Zelda's appearance don't change often, whereas Ganon's does. No design predominates, so having no image in the lead makes sense. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

TV Show Picture

Has anybody seen the tv show from the late 80s? Ganon is ridiculous-looking; some sort of green man-pig.

Anyway, I'm new, but I'm guessing it's illegial to post a TV picture on Wikipedia? (since it's part of a copyrighted franchise) JimmmyThePiep 00:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Not if you can argue it falls under fair use. Jeff Silvers 04:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh wow, another image topic (OMG ORIGINAL) Anyway, this is to be the OFFICIAL topic for the image dispute.

The following is true:

• The latest art of Ganon is from the Oracles games
• The latest art of Ganondorf is from Wind Waker
• There is only one Ganon/Ganondorf
• Miyamoto refers to them both as one character
• There is a timeline

The following depictions would be suitable for the article:

• Ganondorf
  • Concept art of Ganondorf from Wind Waker
  • Screenshot of Ganondorf from Twilight Princess
• Ganon
  • Concept art of Ganon from Oracles
  • Screenshot of Ganon from Twilight Princess
• Combination of two of them

• Ganondorf is refferred to as the same character as Ganon by Miyamoto, and thus it is fair to dictate them as such
• Due to the above, either form is available to use
• Ganon makes seven appearances in the Zelda series
• Ganondorf makes three appearances in the Zelda series
• The last art of Ganon is from Oracles
• The last game with Ganon is Twilight Princess
• The last art of Ganondorf is from Wind Waker
• The last game with Ganondorf is Twilight Princess

Considering these facts:

• If you don't count the 3-D Ganons, then Ganon has appeared in 4 games, which would mean that Ganondorf would be used for the title, as he would be the most recent depiction of the character
• It is reasonable beyond doubt that using a screenshot for the title is acceptable, due to the lack of concept art of both depictions
• Using no art is unacceptable
• Using fan art is unacceptable

Nothing here can be denied (with the sole exception of Ganondorf and Ganon being the same character, as this is only heavily implied, not specifically stated).

Treating this as another "lawl blue pig picture hator" topic is childish at best, as it's more than acceptable to complain about this subject.

Either depiction of the character is acceptable.

Due to there being two forms of the character, using his most recent or most common appearance from their most recent game (ex 4 Ganondorf in OoT, 1 Ganon in OoT) would mean that we'd use Ganondorf for most recent and most common appearances in Twilight Princess.

This issue MUST be resolved, as there is absolutely no reason for such an issue to persist. -Chao9999 03:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, this entire thing has gotten pretty annoying. I really don't understand why people are so stuck up about this. It's a friggin picture people. 65.12.132.100 05:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't interfere with mediation. And some of your "true" statements are not confirmed.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 17:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: Oh, nevermind. -Chao9999 23:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any reason to get rid of Solomon's solution. Plus, this article has too many fair-use images already. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Frankly, this dispute is getting in the way of what's actually needed to improve this article: practically redoing it. If possible, I'd like to see this get up to FA status, but that's not going to happen if we keep bickering about the stupid lead image. - Digital Watches! 19:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to add, what is untrue in this topic (besides the listed exception)? Miyamoto confirmed a timeline, confirmed there to be one Ganon, practically outright stated that they're the same character. -Chao9999 23:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Years ago. ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 00:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Give me a source. I've already seen confirmation that there is, in fact, a timeline. This was, as Zythe says, years ago, but since it hasn't been recinded, it could be argued either way. Either it's outdated because it's old, or it's still valid because it hasn't been taken back. EITHER WAY, there has been no confirmation whatsoever as to whether or not there are multiple Ganons as far as I know. To say otherwise for EITHER side of the dispute without a source is meaningless. So give me a reputable source, and if possible, another (non-mirror) one that corroborates it. The more recent, the better. - Digital Watches! 19:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I personally think we should use the Twilight Picture princess of Ganon in his human form because it's like the Ocarina picture in that it shows his personality well but it's a more recent picture of him and it's the image most people associate with Ganon.

Anon

Fellas, I thought this image debate was useless, so I stayed out of this, but I will make a comment now--the fact that you argued so much, you put both pictures of Ganon/Ganondorf in is almost funny. Just a thought... Superbub 02:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

FA status: What we can do to improve this article.

I have some ideas as to how to vastly improve the quality of this article.

• Remove the plot summaries entirely, and replace them from scratch, with an objective of briefly explaining Ganon's role in the plot, while not elaborating superfluously (or at all, really).
• Out-of-universe perspective. This entire article is written from an in-universe perspective, and that's not only against wikipedia policy, but really a dumb idea. Once we get into in-universe nonsense, we get into all the disputes about canonicity and that gets us nowhere. This isn't a fansite, it's an encyclopedia article.
• Sources. I'm tired of hearing "it's in the game, we don't need a source." That works for some things, but an article with so much information and so few sources is just bad. And when I say sources, I mean reputable sources. Fansites don't help, no matter how well-phrased their argument is.

Hopefully I can get to work on this soon, but if anyone would like to help, I'd really appreciate it. Let's get this article featured if we can. -- Digital Watches! 19:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Film Ganon

There's a live-action movie of Legend of Zelda coming out this autumn. I've just seen the trailer on YouTube. You don't know whose playing Ganon do you? He looks menacing. By the way I like what you've done with the images. Put the pig-Ganon and the human-Ganon in the same picture. Very clever. Why didn't I think of that?

~~Anon~~

No, there isn't really a live-action Zelda coming out, and no, you didn't see a trailer of it on YouTube or anywhere. What you saw was likely one of the various Zelda fan films floating around the Internet. Jeff Silvers 06:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

No I did see a trailer however it turned out the trailer was for a fan-made movie that's being released on the internet this fall. I figured out it was fan-made after noticing how unconvincing the outfits were, how plastic the fight-scenes were and how unrealistic the CGI was. Actually considering it's fan made, the CGI's quite good (they've made a terrific Mt Doom style volcano which would look real if they didn't then have an actor walking across it and a fabulous Ent but the graphics aren't a patch on Peter Jackson. What really made me realise was when I noticed the Tri-Force on the back of Link and Zelda's hands was drawn in felt-tip. You can't help but admire the brave little things who made the film though can you.

~~Anon~~

Is it actually coming out on the Internet this fall? I've seen that video posted on YouTube on March of last year, and to my knowledge it didn't come out that fall. I may even have seen it before that.

Oh. I'm really not sure.

Anon

"Kills" or "injures"

Does Ganondorf kill or injure the sage in Twilight Princess? I was pretty sure we saw all seven sages after (chronologically) Ganon's attack and banishment to the Twilight Realm. Jeff Silvers 21:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the game didn't even show there being seven sages; just five in the non-flashback scenes, and in the flashback, one. And if that sage didn't die in the flashback, they're fairly resilient; I seem to recall it shattering into dust and its mask being left on the floor with its eyes closed.

Water Sage?

Say, is this just an upset fan that didn't like Ruto in OoT, or is this stated on the internet? 'Cause I know it's not stated in the game.

also, who says it's the same sages that sealed him? It probably is, but it could be some different sages... Superbub 21:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It was the sage with the Nayru/Water/Time/Zora/Song of Ages symbol.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 23:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious it was the Sage of Water (if you go by the symbol on his/her/its robes) but that's only assuming that they don't have different meanings by that point. As far as it being Ruto, that is pure speculation. The identities of the Sages are never revealed.

Too many categories

There are way too many categories for just one character. While most of them are accurate some only describe Ganon very little and others mean the same as others just with little other details added. I mean, we could go on forever with Ganon in categories, but just keep the iconic ones. Fictional mass murderers, demons,thieves, ect.. Ganon is only shown as a traitor in Ocarina, so that is not very accurate as there are 8 other games where he didn't betray anyone. He is shown as mass murderer in each game because of the amount of lives lost as a result of his plans, he is always shown as a demon, his backstory was always a thief, so all those are the most accurate. Just put categories that Ganon fits into in ALL or most of his depictions-Darknessofheart

Some categories are POV or trivial and could be deleted. Anything that fits, stays.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 17:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

We have to include events directly related to him, even if it makes the article long (EX keep "ganondorf killed this guy" but remove "link revived this guy"). Unless it's directly related to him, we should remove it. The OoT article seems "meh", the Twilight Princess article is perfect, and the WW article is ok. But don't do any mass deleting until we can determine what should fit and what cannot. Until then, don't speak for all of us. -Chao9999 23:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Ocarina of Time

The Ocarina of Time section states that "He eventually kills the King and chases Impa and Princess Zelda into hiding." Is there any basis to the claim he killed the king? I've played Ocarina of Time too many times, and never got the impression that he died, just that he was dethroned. Plus, I always assumed he was the same king in Wind Waker.

No basis for claim, I'll remove it if it's still there. Also, the WW King can't be the same, WW takes place more than 100 years after OoT. -Chao9999 23:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe he killed the king, but not until he obtained the Triforce of Power. It seems that way as the castle and all the knights were eradicated. He defiantly didn't kill him before that.-Darknessofheart

There really isn't anything that points towards Ganondorf killing the king. It shouldn't be in the article. 65.12.132.100 00:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Ganon OoT Pic

Can someone add a picture of Ganon (2nd from) in Oot?

Sympathetic in Wind Waker

Where did this come from? Have you got any evidence or explanation for this? I don't recall a change in attitude. Please explain. Ashnard _talk 21:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The only real sympathy he shows is when he says he won't kill them. He just wants the Triforce. That's the only part though. -Sukecchi 21:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Right, I've edited it out now, as I think it's an unfounded claim, also, what about the caption under the Wind Waker Ganon? It says he is an older Ganon, is there any evidence? I thought them to be approximatley the same age. Should this be removed? (question overload). Ashnard _talk 21:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Although he shows some sings of humanity (wanting to use the triforce to wish Hyrule back cause he "missed" it instead of just wishing for more power) he is still evil incarnated and the word sympathetic does not fit there. -Dark Dragon Flame 21:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

It's just Nintendo giving him a deeper personality instead of him being the power-mad lunatic, one thing that I thought was good about WindWaker. But what about the age thing? Ashnard _talk 22:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by age thing? -Dark Dragon Flame 22:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Look at my post that is above yours, about the caption under the WW Ganon, saying he is an older Ganon, I think it should be edited out. I'm going to bed now, so you can leave it or edit out. But I really think the comment is unfounded. Bye. Ashnard _talk 22:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I went ahead and removed it; the difference is probably just a traslation of desing of characters from a more realistic like the N64 versions to a cel-shaded style. -Dark Dragon Flame 22:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it's to do with the fact that Ganon has more realistic motivations, a purpose, the audience can symptahise with him more. He's not a 2-dimensional evil ra-ra character anymore.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 12:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

True, but that doesn't make him personally more sympathetic, it makes the player more sympathetic, and even that is a matter of opinion. Ashnard _talk 13:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that's sort of what defines a "sympathetic character." - Digital Watches! 01:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Sympathy conjures the wrong connotations, it is an unsuitable adjective for Ganondorf in WW, and it isn't what "sort of defines a sympathetic character", there is a difference between the player being able to sympathise and Ganondorf being able to. I think that is where the confusion has arose. Ashnard _talk 15:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Ganon Article Picture

Can we put that picture to represent Ganon at the top of the article ? -DjinnFighter 23:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

This picture has my support but I won't add it until others express their opinion here because the article states that there is or has been an image dispute before, so what do you all think? -Dark Dragon Flame 01:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It beats the other Ganon picture, I'd definitley support it going up. Ashnard _talk 08:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Where did you find that artwork?217.44.117.127 16:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I added the image it's the most recent we have of him and it has that menacing factor about it, this article was in definitive need of an image thus my change. -Dark Dragon Flame 22:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Admin's decision was no lead image. This picture is the worst yet, only representing a very distinct depiction in one game.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 00:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Ganondorf's appearance is always different in every game, the general depiction of a huge pig-like fiend is present in everygame. It is not really a very distinct depiction. Ashnard _talk 20:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I like it, but really where did you find it?--Widkid85 00:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I found it on a french Zelda fan site, Puissance-Zelda, on this page. It's a new official Twilight Princess artwork. The Ganon article needs a picture, he is one of the three main characters in The Legend of Zelda. Generally (not always), Wikipedia presents a lead image of the last appearance of a video game character. People didn't like the old Oracle Ganon for a lot of reasons, but this one is correct, but it reveals a spoiler, a spoiler that is already revealed with the picture in the article anyway, so it's not the problem. It should be the lead image of the article, but with "Ganon as seen in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess" written under it.DjinnFighter 01:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the link to that site, it had some amazing artwork i hadnt seen before. On that site there is one of ganon in Twilight Princess, i think that should be the main picture as it is the latest incarnation.--71.183.44.244 02:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

At the very least, the official art of Ganon's human form should replace the in-game screenshot in the TP section.217.44.117.127 15:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, I have changed it to the official artwork of Ganondorf ! DjinnFighter 16:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the case with Link, do we take it to votation or do we bring in an admin to resolve this again? -Dark Dragon Flame 02:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It's certainly a good picture although personally I'd prefer an image of Ganon in his human form. Oh and on a completely unrelated note I notice the category of Fictional megalomaniacs has been deleted. Zythe, please explain.

Anon

Hey, who got rid of that nice picture of Ganon from Twilight Princess that was there a minute ago?

Anon

It got deleted at WP:CFD as being too hard to objectively define.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 17:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Zythe, you're a charming chap but you are the Great Destroyer of Categories.

Anon

Wind Waker Spoiler

Understood this entire page is one hell of a spoiler, I feel the image of Link stabbing the mighty Ganon in the face goes a bit overboard. It is a dramatic scene, I feel it should be removed, or if nothing else every other exciting conclusion to Ganon should be ruined for the general populous. THE END.

This whole page is full of spoilers, if someone is afraid of spoilers, then they should stay away from wikipedia. The only thing we are responsible for is marking the areas of the spoilers and that's already done. Everything else,including the image, is fine by wikipedia standards. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and is meant to include all information possible, the image is dramatic as you said, but that's the reason for it being in the article. We only include pictures that are iconic of Ganondorf's character and we include the most dramatic images to convey that effect. The point is I can't imagine someone who doesn't want to be spoiled would go to this page. The whole character of Ganondorf is a spoiler as his backstory make up large portions of the story in Zelda games. I see no problem with the image, as I said that it's a very iconic moment in Ganondorf's chracter. Just to note, I didn't post the image, I just don't think it's a big deal.-Darknessofheart

"If someone is afraid of spoilers, then they should stay away from Wikipedia"

If that were the case, then spoiler tags wouldn't exist. Some people don't go to Wikipedia for spoilers, they go for information, and not everybody wants to know everything. Please remember that spoiler tags don't negate the effects of images, because they can be seen when scrolling downwards, so it is very easy to see spoilers, (as I have done when viewing a TP page before it was released in Europe.) Ashnard _talk 16:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What Happened?!

I remember yesterday his wikipedia was full of info, what happened???

It still is you fool.

Anon

Ganondorf's voice in TP

I don't recall seeing Nagasako's name in the ending credits of TP. Was it ever truly confirmed that he voiced Ganondorf in that game? I believe he only voiced him in OoT, WW, FSA, and SSBM. NeoSeifer

Yes, Nagasako voiced Ganondorf in that game. He has the EXACT same voice as the one in WW, though a little higher than OoT's.

Should it?

I don't understand... Someone has posted a link to an article entitled "Dark World" yet when I click it, it brings me to Yu-Gi-Oh cards or something so why does it link there if it has nothing to do with the Dark World or Ganondorf? Bassium!Bassium! 00:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. Apparently "Dark World" redirects to the Yu-Gi-Oh! article, so I've replaced the link in this article with a piped link to Sacred Realm#Dark World. --Sparky Lurkdragon 16:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Melee

There's a picture of Ganondorf as he's seen in Melee, captioned "Ganon in action on Melee," despite the fact that it's his idle pose, and it should be "Ganondorf in action in Melee, not "on Melee". The only problem (besides the cruddy explanation below it) is that it's really badly taken. It looks like it was taken with a camera from the 80's -- it's very pixelly, the color is distorted, and shows his idle stance from behind. Can I take it down? Teamrocketspy621 15:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I've so far seen no complaints, so you have my blessing, for what it's worth. If someone reeeeeeeeealy likes that shot, he can always revert it. By the way, if you revert it, please let us know why. I don't want a revert war. Bucky 08:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna take it down now.Thecolourrose

Here too?!!?!?

What is happening to all our lead pictures?!??!?Thecolourrose

I know, it makes it look quite bland and "stub-like" at the start, I can't remember the reasons for them doing it. You say "Here Too", where else has this happened? Ashnard _talk 16:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

There's no lead Zelda or Midna picture. And we're having trouble finding and souceing one. We don't know how to source...Thecolourrose

IIRC the lack of a picture was due to constant edit warring. People were constantly switching between his human appearence and his pig shapped one. Aslo IIRC it was determined that there was no primary appearence for the character. In short, sourcing is not the issue here. Finally, there is a lead picture for Zelda from here apperence in Smash Bros and has been so since late March. --67.71.77.17 04:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I knew the story behind the Ganon shot being gone; it was lementable, but probably the best choice. I noticed that the picture of Zelda is back, and I'm glad to see it. Talks over whether or not another shot of her should be used are currently going on, but this is at least suitable for now. But why isn't there a lead picture of Midna right now? Bucky 07:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Why can't anyone find a pic with Gannodorf and Gannon? Wait! Is it Gannondorf or Ganondorf? I'm soo confused!! Thecolourrose

Scroll to the top of the page, sheesh, a little common sense wouldn't go amiss, it's Ganon by the way. I don't think it's the point of trying to find a picture, the comments above state something about it. Ashnard _talk 17:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry.Thecolourrose I'm a newb so don't get mad at me. Mkay? Thecolourrose

Hey, at one point or another, we were all the new guy. Yeah, his name is spelled with just one "n". The only time you'll see two "n"s is in the T.V. show, the Cd-I games (Those are abominations), and apparantly there is a real life football player named Gannon. No relation to the Prince of Darkness. Bucky 06:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

ActuallyGannon was first used in the original Legend of Zelda into text. From what I heard though it was fixed in ohter versions (GBA, collecters eddition disc, and VC). I can also confrim that there is a football player by that name Rich Gannon --65.95.16.175 20:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm only a two month old wikipedian; I started in February. Sorry if I came over as mean, but, yeah. Ashnard _talk 09:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, you were talking about American Football, I thought you were talking about real Football. Ashnard _talk 20:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow! This has nothing to do with the lead pictures...That's ok ashnard I forgive ya! Thecolourrose

My dear Ashnard, I do believe that you have just insulted American football and all who are fans of it. Be glad that I'm not a die hard fan of either football. By the way, to those of you who don't know, there are a few wierdos out there, primarily Europeans and South Americans, who refer to soccer as football. I don't know why, since soccer seems like a perfectly good name, but oh well. Anyway, "football" to me means American football, and the other football, to me, is called "soccer". That's the name I played it under, and that's what I'll continue to call it. By the way, I'm easily distracted. Bucky 07:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

My dear Bucky, you have insulted the beautiful game, but don't worry, I'm willing to forgive you. By the way, the word "Soccer" derives from "Association Football", they used to take a part of the word and put the "er" suffix on, so Rugby Football was sometimes "Rugger". Why am I explaining this? It's just you crazy Americans who change the name of everything, spell everything differently, and pronounce everything differently. Pah. @Thecolourrose-Thanks for that, now I'll forgive you for the "Gannon" thing. Ashnard _talk 09:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

This may seem out of theme but, Bucky there are way more soccer fans than just European and South American weirdos that call it football, actually football is the the most popular name for the sport in the planet. - 凶 15:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's the thing. I like to see how people react when I do things. I'm normally a perfectly civil individual, but occationally, I'll do or say something seemingly not nice just to see who can maintain their civility. I don't always have the best judgement in this, which can lead to situations similar to walking into a Black Panther meeting and shouting the N word at the top of my lungs. By the way, I've never done that, as the N word is very disgusting to me. You guys seem to have passed the civility test. Congradulations, you're tolerant. Sorry about any insults I made. Bucky 18:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No worries Bucky, I didn't take it to heart; you big fat American jerk ;) Ashnard _talk 20:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Um, I only started this discussion to ask why Ganondorf's pic was removed. It seems like alot of you (noone inparticular) are getting of the topic. Which is fine, but, I'm wondering a few things. HOW DID FOOTBALL GET INTO THE SUBJECT??

Thecolourrose

I think that is probably a rhetorical question but I'll answer regardless: Ganon was mispelt as Gannon who happened to be an American Football player in which I took it upon myself to mention real Football. DID THAT ANSWER YOUR PROBABLY RHETORICAL QUESTION? Ashnard _talk 18:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I got on it because I'm easily distracted. It's a mental thing I've had since I was a wee one. By the way, Ashnard, I'm chubby, not fat, ya European Stick! ;) Bucky 20:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Grr......European stick? Typical American; always obsessed with weight, shame on you Bucky;) Ashnard _talk 21:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Please no personal attacts. I just wanted to know why they were taking down the Ganondorf and Gannon pictures. I didn't mean it to go so far. I'm so sorry Wikipedia. I have failed you. Thecolourrose

I just remembered that emotion is hard to convey in plain text. Sorry, Thecolorrose. That little ;) that Ashnard and I are adding is supposed to indicate a playful jab, nothing serious. By the way, does Ashnard weigh more or less than a breadbox? In kilograms, of course. Ha Ha Ha! ;) I've been known to carry this stuff on for hours, but if it's making you uncomfortable, I'll quit right here and let Ashnard get the last word. Unless someone objects. Bucky 06:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Last word(s): Your mamma's so fat that when she jumps in the water, the water jumps out. Ha ha ha ;) Ashnard _talk 08:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

If Bucky's mother, no doubt an English rose is that overweight then I shudder to imagine the sheer size and weight of your own mother, Ashnard my dear Yankee imbecile. I don't think I'm the only thing that shudders as I imagine the ground does when she walks. But I'm getting off topic, what were we talking about again? Something to do with Ganon?

Anon

Ahh, reserving anonymity with anon, I did that once. You do realise that I am the English one; Bucky is the Yank. I ought to sue your anonymous arse!;) Ashnard _talk 18:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm from Middlesbrough, by the way, comment on that as youb see fit. Note: I assume that you're English. Ashnard _talk 18:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Anon, we were talking about Ganondorf, and why his picture was removed. And Ashnard, I'm getting really anoyed by yours. Mkay? Thecolourrose

By my what? I'll abstain if you so wish, sorry if I've caused offence. Ashnard _talk 21:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

No, at all....

Thecolourrose

A'ight, this has become little more than a snowball fight. If we want to continue berating each other, whether or not malice is intended, I'm setting up a section on my talk page for that purpose. And don't forget to sign, as that would be a sign of cowardice, which I assume is not a quality of a man from Middlesbrough, right? Bucky 04:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh I'm so sorry, Ashnard, your mother's the English rose, Bucky, you're the Yankee imbecile. And yes, Ashnard, I'm English. Rule, Britannia, Britannia waves the rules, Britain never, ever, ever, shall be fools. But I'm getting off topic again. Yes the reason Ganon's picture was removed was because there was an argument over which picture should be used. Some people felt that the pig-picture should be used as it was the form he had taken the most times whereas the others like myself thought that it didn't show Ganon very well as a character and thought the picture of Ganon in his human form a better representation of his personality. If you ask me we should hold a vote to see who associates which picture with him and whoever gets the majority wins. They say Wikipedia isn't a democracy but it seems to fairest way to do it at the moment. After we've nipped this image dispute in the bud we can focus on other matters. Oh and by the way, Middlesbrough's very nice from what I've heard although it's not a patch on Chester.

Anon - (please don't sue my anonymous you know what, I'm getting registered soon)

Going on-topic, I believe the humanoid Ganondorf should be shown since this is his original form, countless archenemies always turn into massive freaks at the end, just look at Golden Sun. Anyway, something is better than nothing, but I'm voting for humsnoid Ganondorf. By the way, I've started the insults on Bucky's talk page, you Chester . ;) Ashnard _talk 10:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I still don't see why we can't just atleast try to find a picture with both forms and just not use one lead picture. Thecolourrose

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, do you mean a single image that is split in two showing the different forms? Ashnard _talk 14:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

If possible. Or have two lead pictures or just not have a lead picture and put both where the Character Depition is. Thecolourrose

Sounds reasonable. Ashnard _talk 14:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, back on topic. Yay. I'd be cool with a dual lead picture of Ganon, but the gods of Wikipedia have ordained that there not be a lead picture, because of an image dispute a while back. However, if enough offerings were made, and a promise to never again argue about it were made, it's possible that they would forgive that sin, and allow Ganondorf/Ganon to have a lead picture. Does anyone happen to know how to make offerings to them? Bucky 18:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

What possible offerings are there in the anonyomus scope of wikipedia? Ashnard _talk 18:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I shall give up my usership in sacrifice. Goodbye all. For the last time Thecolourrose 23:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

We appreciate your willingness to offer yourself as a sacrifice, Thecolorrose, but somehow, I can't help but think that User sacrifice might be frowned upon by the gods; but that is a good question, Ashnard. What if we asked them what a fitting sacrifice might be? It's not like they're hiding away on some proverbial Mount Olympus where we can't speak to them, are they? Bucky 06:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Very true. User sacrifice indeed. Are we heathens? Let's sacrifice a goat instead. As for the proverbial Mount Olympus question you raised, Bucky, I'm afraid I have no idea, maybe we should have a look around for them. Gods of Wikipediaaaa, come out, come out wherever you are. Gods, Go-ods.............

I don't hear anything, do you?

Anon

User:Martinp23 is an administrator.

different Anon

For when we can use a picture: Perhaps this picture would represent Ganon best? [1] It sort of incorporates all three elements (Pig, Humanoid and Horseback). BTW I have a bigger picture of this somewhere if everyone agrees to use it. I feel it's quite a menacing picture of Ganon and represents him best..:Alex:. 19:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes I quite agree. That would be the perfect lead picture. Does anyone else agree?

Anon

Thumbs up

The article's looking okay! We need to start actively looking for inline citations (lots of reliable external links about the character) to improve the article.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 12:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Splendid. I don't actually know how to do those inline citation thingies so someone else will have to do that. In the meantime what are we going to do about this image dispute thing? let's get an image of Ganon's ugly head that everyone likes once and for all before the old dispute rears ITS ugly head again.

Anon

I know how to do citations so I could sort it out once the Ashnard page is assessed, this could be turned into a decent article once we've got a lead picture and sufficient citations. Ashnard _talk 11:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I myself am disappointed by the apparent lack of commitment going into this article. The infobox without a picture really makes the article look like a stub at first glance; I was actually going to use the Faces of Evil image as the lead picture just to end this silly picture dispute going on, but I didn't feel like going against an administrator's wishes and let that pass. Plus, the article should really talk more about the character himself rather than the role he plays in the games (i.e. add a "Personality and appearance" section). Lastly, where are the references? You cannot have a good Wikipedia article without verifiable references. There's bound to be some official websites about Ganon to use, so let's go find some! In-game quotes can also be used, so you've all got that going for you. Which is nice.

P.S. If anyone here does a complete overhaul of the page, then I suggest using the Doctor Neo Cortex article I've been working on as reference; it's longer, cleaner, and has a decent amount of references. I wish you luck. Cat's Tuxedo 00:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Sadly because of the disputed chronology of the Zelda series, it's impossible to really write about the character's fictional history. What we can do it a sort of out-of-universe "production history" which has been subdivided game-by-game.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 18:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Pig! I get sick of it!

Argh! The only game in which Ganon appeared as a "pig" demon was the first Legend of Zelda! Every other time he is a boar! Go ahead in check. In ALttP, he had tusks. He had them in OoT, as well. Don't forget the Oracle series. And of course TP, and FSA. See where I'm going?

Are you complaining about the page stating him asd a pig? If so, change it! Go on — be bold. Ashnard _talk 13:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

ummm... gone? (Wind waker spoilers)

in the wind waker portion of the article, it says that without the triforce of power, Ganon turned to stone after being impaled. However, wasn't the Triforce of Power mark on Ganon's right hand during the final battle? because if so, we really shouldn't say that he didn't have his triforce piece/ lost his triforce piece.

You're right. At least the game never mentions the Triforce of Power's relation to his fate. He just turns to stone, and anything else is original research. Gurko 07:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

didn't the triforce leave him when it reformed so he could make the wish? I thought itshowed the triforce abandoning it's holders after DNH made the wish to drown Hyrule in that scene.

True... it did seemingly leave him when Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule made his wish. However, that does NOT explain why his Triforce mark is clearly visible on his right hand during the final fight. I mean, it even showed Zelda's triforce mark on her hand both during the final battle and the ending. Really, if his crest truly left him, shouldn't the mark on his hand be nonexistant as well?

• Are you sure it was there during the fight? I guess I'm gonna have to play the game again when I have the time cause now I'm curious about that.