Talk:Garbage (band)

Musical Style section and references

Garbage hasn't been influenced by Curve, nor have they ever said they are influenced. The other artists mentioned have been truthfully and correctly cited, however some resentful Curve fan decided to include Curve and cite another resentful Curve fan's (or maybe their own) blog-diatribe on Garbage in comparison to Curve.

This is misleading, and pathetic, and it's been removed. --Lapadite77 (talk) 09:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the claim that Curve influenced Garbage. Every band is influenced by other bands. And in this case, Garbage and Curve both made electronic rock music (plus their vocalists are pretty similar). That source that you removed (a trashy Pitchfork review of a Curve compilation) is definitely malicious regarding to Garbage. I think that Curve should be mentioned, but using a different source. Deepblue1 (talk) 12:01, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, all bands have their influences (Garbage has mentioned theirs), and that Garbage hasn't been influenced by Curve in particular is my opinion, however Garbage, to my knowledge, has never claimed Curve an influence, so I removed it because it is not a proper/truthful reference for the inclusion of the band, but a spiteful review from a Curve fan. You can't just make a claim and cite some random opinion post as a source. I've no problem with a valid source for Curve (or any other band) being an influence on Garbage being cited. --Lapadite77 (talk) 23:32, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Here's one reliable source, Allmusic: http://www.allmusic.com/artist/garbage-mn0000194246/related (see Influenced By section). I don't think that Garbage ever claimed that they were influenced by Curve, but that doesn't mean that they weren't at all (at least for Garbage's debut album).

Here you can read this:

“ Toni Halliday has occasionally commented on the comparisons between both groups, stating in an 1996 interview with Volume magazine, that she could "see bits of Garbage in what we've done, just like we see bits of Sonic Youth or the Valentines or really any band that was doing something supposedly outside the norm. In a way it's very flattering to be tied in with (Garbage drummer and co-producer) Butch Vig, not just because he's a brilliant human being, but because he's a brilliant producer, and he's worked on some of our favourite records. But eventually Garbage are a pop band, and Curve were never a pop band". ”

Deepblue1 (talk) 13:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

"...really any band that was doing something supposedly outside the norm" - that says enough (also, what an arrogant statement). Are all bands that did anything outside the norm going to be grouped together and claimed to have influenced each other?

There's literally no sonic evidence that Garbage was at all influenced by Curve, nor has Garbage ever claimed them an influence, amidst all the artists (a lot) they noted over the years. Nothing of their music sounds like Curve's - the similarities start and end in the mere act of experimentation. Curve actually started electronic stuff after Garbage did theirs, so if anything Curve followed what Garbage was doing since their experimentation with such elements came after Garbage's success with it. Furthermore, Curve never had songs like Stupid Girl, Queer, A Stroke of Luck, Dog New Tricks, Milk, etc. Sorry, as much as Curve fans like to repeat the notion, there's no evidence of an influence there. --Lapadite77 (talk) 05:42, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

"There's literally no sonic evidence that Garbage was at all influenced by Curve". Just listen their music. For example "Fait Accompli" from 1992. I'm a big fan of both bands, and I can see the fact that Curve influenced Garbage, at least a little bit (guitar tone, basslines, rhythms). That doesn't mean that Garbage copied Curve (like some envious Curve fans claimed). It's not the same thing at all. Also take a look at the Garbage's Similar Artists on Last.fm; Curve is by far the most similar band from that list. And both bands are amazing.

"Curve actually started electronic stuff after Garbage did theirs". No. Curve started their electronic stuff much earlier. Listen for example the songs Sandpit, Low and Behold, Cherry, Today Is Not the Day, Unreadable Communication, Left of Mother, Cuckoo, all released before 1995 (before Garbage released their debut album). Plus Curve always used synths behind the loud guitars. Listen closely. Deepblue1 (talk) 15:17, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

No, there's no sonic evidence whatsoever. I've listened to all of Curve's albums (and I like their music), otherwise I wouldn't be posing this. Just because you want there to be doesn't mean there is. I don't like the Cocteau Twins, but I know they're an influence, particularly on Shirley. Those are purely categorial suggestions, and in any event I see Angelfish (not coincidentally, Shirley's old band), The Cardigans, Hole, No Doubt, Veruca Salt, and Republica listed before Curve - bands they sound nothing like and are nothing like. That says everything. It's absurd you're citing a music listening/suggestion site that gives potential similar interests relative to the bands. Do you understand that it's merely categorial data? Do you say all industrial bands are influenced by each other, or that all Thrash bands are influenced by each other, and so on and so forth? your logic is flawed and your bias is transparent. There is no particular sonic influence here. And I'd pointed out a bunch of songs that sound nothing like Curve.

Look at the music site you cited in the wiki page - 'Influenced by: The Cure, The Cars, Wire'... Lol; bands with no relation to Garbage beyond some of them not being limited to one genre - again, categorical grouping (every band has it in these kinds of sites). I don't see The Cure or The Cars being cited here, but conveniently Curve is there for the Curve fan. Why not just cite a Pandora or Spotify page? They musically categorize bands too. Isn't it telling a Curve fan is the one insisting Curve is an influence? Why aren't you citing all the rock bands that EVER delved into electronic stuff (there's many)? Why aren't you citing in the Curve page all the bands they were really influenced by? And no, Curve properly delved into (and continued with) electronic after Garbage, with their Come Clean record. They were a guitar-driven rock/alternative/shoegazing/gothic/industrial band before. Oh are both Garbage and Curve hard to categorize into one genre, like so many other bands? Oh well I guess they must sound the same and one must be influenced by the other. Seriously, there's nothing valid here. But if you want to keep that source, a music discovering/listening site, be my guest. Anyone with a brain who goes to check it will question the validity. --Lapadite77 (talk) 21:32, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Btw, since you like to contribute to the pages, why don't you contribute to Garbage's or Shirley Mansons's own influence/legacy section? --Lapadite77 (talk) 21:39, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry @Lapadite77:, but you've completely lost me with this post. You might not want to admit it, but many songs on their debut - including "Vow" and "Supervixen" - owe more than a debt to "Clipped" alone, yet alone the rest of their Curve's debut album. I was all for removing that nonsense Pitchfork source (from back when it was basically a blog) and replacing it with a genuine one, but you're so vehemently denying any influence whatsoever, that it makes me question your motives for your position. It's obvious we should all screw that Pitchfork source back where it belongs, but it's also clear that Vig - at least - has been influenced in some capacity by Curve's sound. Once a genuine source is found, it should be included. Homeostasis07 (talk) 01:14, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, i've been transparent and reasonable from the start, when I first stated there is no sonic evidence of Curve being an influence on Garbage. I know Curve fans obsessively insist there is, no need to beat that point. What it does is question Curve's fans motives, actually, which are transparent every time - and questioned in my previous post with logical points you conveniently ignore. Did you understand my points? I posted logical rebuttals to clearly biased and fundamentally illogical reasons. I personally stated I do not care for some of Garbage's influences but still realize they are influences, plus, I like Curve's music. However, they are not one. And do you really find a music discovery/suggestion site to be a valid source for citing influence? Again, might as well just use a Pandora as a source. What I realize is that Curve fans generally don't seem to be able to distinguish, discriminate, or contextualize in this regard. Loud, layered guitars have been used by many bands. Electronic fusions have been done by many, many bands. Clipped evokes no particular Garbage song. Again, any similarities start and end with the mere approach to music making - something not remotely enough to closely associate bands and label one an influence on or rip off of another (but clearly, Curve fans deem it enough). But to indulge the idea, realize that many bands throughout history, including the most acclaimed and popular, have made songs that have evoked prior songs or general approaches, sometimes specifically with particular riffs for example, and the bands themselves sometimes have never even heard of the artists they're supposed to have been influenced by or stolen from. That Curve fans want to closely associate Curve with Garbage as opposed to a myriad of other fusion artists and bands that influenced Curve (and suspiciously isn't mentioned on their page), and that influenced Garbage (which they've humbly noted over the years, in notable contrast to Halliday's arrogant statement posted here by Deepblue) is ultimately not my problem. It's like Exhorder fans compulsively insisting on associating them with Pantera, claiming the latter stole their style, when Patnera sounded like no one and is one of the most influential and acclaimed modern rock/metal bands. That's probably the main issue with Curve fans, they echo the logically-flawed, generally-associate-me mentality of Curve's singer: she could 'see bits of Garbage in what we've done, just like we see bits of Sonic Youth or the Valentines or really any band that was doing something supposedly outside the norm. In a way it's very flattering to be tied in with (Garbage drummer and co-producer) Butch Vig" (or maybe she was actually rightfully taking the piss out of that idea with the bolded statement, and if so, I'd give her props there). So like I said, so be it, run with it to your liking, use your 'source'. At least is not that pathetic blog cited by a hateful Curve fan. I do find it funny you both agreed it was invalid, nonsense, yet neither evidently took the initiative to remove it. In any event, it's all cool - your association stays there. --Lapadite77 (talk) 02:49, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Take look at this interview, where Vig notes influentials bands for debut: (about 2:28) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSiWVe941bY --Lapadite77 (talk) 02:26, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I do ask, why do you not contribute to Garbage's own influence/legacy section if you're so keen on contributing to influences? or is Curve's inclusion only what matters? --Lapadite77 (talk) 03:05, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

First up, I'm not a Curve fan. They're a name I hear about every so often, but aside from watching about half a dozen videos recently on Youtube, I've never heard much of their work. But even I noticed the similarities almost immediately. And the influences section of Garbage's AllMusic article is a fine source for Curve's inclusion on an influences section. You don't need an interview where a member of Garbage explicitly says "Yes, we are definitely influenced by band X" to include "band X" in an influences section. Interviews, Reviews, the influences section of a credible site such as AllMusic, they're all acceptable sources. Homeostasis07 (talk) 00:26, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Lol, yeah that's what both your posts indicate (sarcasm). And no, it is not. Music suggestion/discovering sites with their categorical genre/style grouping are not by any means a valid source. But like I said, do as you wish. Hey, why don't you also include The Cardigans, Hole, No Doubt, Veruca Salt, Republica (all listed before Curve on lastfm site), The Cure, New Order, Leftfield, Wire, The Cars, Iggy Pop (all on allmusic site)? They're all too suggestions in addition to Curve on your "source", why only hellbent on Curve? And why is there no section on the myriad of bands that influenced Curve on their wiki? Transparent. I leave this stale discussion with Shirley Manson's early word on it: "We're nothing like Curve....when a band is young and it hasn't made its own mark, then people will compare you to others. Always."

Leave it to Curve fans to compulsively hang on to an early suggestion, 20 years and 5 very different, eclectic albums later. It's hilarious when you read some Curve fans on the internet in Garbage-related sites and videos say stuff like "rip-off, don't listen to this, go buy Curve albums instead". Lol, could they be any more transparent? I don't think may people would've even heard of Curve if it wasn't for a bunch of their resentful overzealous fans trying to associate them with Garbage. Not that you two are necessarily like them. But hey if you were on some music fans discovery/suggestion site, it would certainly group you with the obnoxious rest ;) Cheers. --Lapadite77 (talk) 03:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Been a garbage fan since 1995. I have never heard of the "curve" association. Let alone heard of curve. I know from Shirley's own mouth who her influences are and Curve was not among the list of greats that came out of her mouth. Want to post curve as being an influence on Garbage then give us Shirley's lips saying it. This is not beign nasty but asking for the truth. Posting some random site with some info, not saying you did this, on how some bands influenced others is not good enough and i support the removal of such a reference. EnveeNV (talk) 20:35, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Possible deletion of Category:Female-fronted musical groups

The category Female-fronted musical groups is up for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_August_6#Category:Female-fronted_musical_groups, and this music group article has listed it as a category. If you have an opinion either way please join the discussion. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)