Talk:Gasoline/Archive 1

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Lead, additives, environmental effects

The environmental effects of lead in gasoline are extremely difficult to measure and have not been measured in real world settings. Theory suggests that there should be some bad effects, but it is very unclear if these should be called "major". There has been and still is some controversy about this.

off the top of my head, lead is emitted along with the exhaust gas as volatile halides as well as particulate oxides. It is a proven neurotoxic, especially in children.--134.121.3.150 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Also lead was used in high performance military gasoline during WW2. I'm not sure if it might be even older than that. "1960s" is certainly too late for its introduction.

The form of lead used in gasoline is tetra-ethyl lead.

There are several lead substitutes used in modern lead-free gasoline:

dimethyl sulfur: smells horrible. Slightly corrosive to engines. Not sure if it is dangerous. This was used in small quantities back to the 1930s. The amount used is now much higher in some countries where cheap high octane gasoline without lead is desired.

is there a reference on this useage? sulfur heterocompounds are usually inherited from the crude oil as mercaptanes, dialkylsulfides and disulfides. While they can act as radical traps (anti-knocking), their effect on the octane number is weak. Following burning in the engine, toxic sulfur oxides generally denoted as SO_x are formed.--134.121.3.150 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

aromatic hydrocarbons (especially benzene, toluene, xylene): Really seriously poisonous and carcinogenic. Much more dangerous than lead. Slightly corrosive to some engine parts. Civilised countries limit these by law to a very small percentage. These are present to some extent in crude oil, and small quantities have always been present in gasoline.

commercial, or pump, gasoline is actually a blend of several fractions, or components, originating both from the primary processing (distillation) and from the secondary processing (which includes conversion.) Most of the aromatics are added as a fraction called reformate, which is obtained in the catalytic reforming (a.k.a. platforming) process. Aromatics have a very good octane rating, however, they tend to generate increased carbon particulates in the exhaust (black smoke), and the vapors emitted are carcinogenic, as mentioned.--134.121.3.150 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

branched hydrocarbons: comparitively safe, but they add significantly to the cost, given the large quantities needed.

again, i think this needs to be clarified: pump gasoline is a blend of fractions. On the one hand we have the so-called straight-run gasoline, which is a product of distillation from the crude oil, and inherits the chemical profile of the crude blend. On the other hand we have the commercial gasoline blend(s) which has to conform to commercial standards (octane number, point of crystallization, polymer formation potential, moisture content, acidity, vapor pressure) as well as to regulatory standards (emissions by evaporation, sulfur content, total aromatics, benzene, total oxygenates). The lists in parantheses are not exhaustive. The different blends are made up of similar components and additives in different proportions optimized to yield the desired properties. The blending process is half art half empirical science.--134.121.3.150 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Oxygenates are other high-octane components of gasoline that allowed the complete phase-out of lead. They include alcohols and ethers. Methanol is -I think- widely used, although exposure to vapors and liquid can cause irreversible blindness. MTBE (methyl-tert-butyl-ether) is notorious in that shortly after virtually all refiners invested in plants, the ether was found to easily contaminate aquifers and bans were considered in California and Connecticut. Don't have current information on this to hand.--134.121.3.150 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

MMT (Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl if you must know) is used in Canada (for a long time) and Australia (recently) to boost octane...also helps old cars designed for leaded fuel to run on unleaded fuel without need for additives to prevent valve stem problems. It's the Manganese that has the effect.

--GPoss 10:21, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

Someone should write something about Ignacy Łukasiewicz. He discovered the paraffin lamp and opened the world's first petroleum refinery in 1856. [[1]]

Q&A's

--QUESTION What is the generated heat (J/kg) obtained by burning gasoline?

--ANSWER

Fuel      kJ/g     kwh/kg
Kerosene  48       15.5
Gasoline  50
Diesel    45       15.5

--QUESTION What is the freezing point of gasoline?

Being a mixture of various components, gasoline does not have a well-defined freezing point. Depending on the region where a blend is sold, the so-called crystallization point, or clouding point, should be lower than the expected minimum temperature in that specific region. Complete freezing occurs at a much lower temperature. Will return with some numbers soon.--Unconcerned 08:52, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

From PNA/Chemicals

• Petrol#World_War_II_and_octane has received some anonymous additions correcting previous information which I can't check but appear not to be a patent nonsense. Anyway, the are written in the parenthetical polemics style

(This is not true, as german aviation engines were of the direct fuel injection type and used emergency methanol-water and nitrous-oxide injection ...

(this historical "issue" is based on a very common misapprehension about wartime fuel octane numbers. ...

As someone has already pointed out ...

so it would need proper wikification/rewrite anyway. --Malyctenar 15:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Units

Could we please have this in SI units instead of 40 hogsheads to the rod units?

As long as the article has that weird name, the weird units look pretty normal to me! The problem is, the people who use those units don't understand them, and the people who don't use those units don't understand them either. So nobody can figure out how to convert them to SI units. Okay, maybe a couple of us could; I've got that hodsheads to the rod stuff down pat, 40.00 hogsheads to the rod is 1.897 m², round off that result according to how precise your "40" is. (One problem, of course, is that people don't use the SI units for fuel consumption or fuel economy; a typical automobile fuel consumption is in the 50 to 100 µm² range, however, so 40 hogsheads to the rod takes an enormous amount of fuel.) Gene Nygaard 09:07, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

BTW, that means, of course, that Grandpa Simpson's vehicle would probably work fine if he had a two square meter (in cross-section) trough of fuel along the road from which he could suck up his fuel. Gene Nygaard 09:20, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Odd choice...

Why does it have this in the overview paragraph? "The United States use 360 million US liquid gallons (1.36 billion litres) of gasoline each day."

It seems as though it has been stuck in there as a quick shot against the US. I'm canadian, but i think it maked the entire paragraph flow oddly. any other opinions? SECProto 19:28, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

It does appear awkward, a better value would be the maount used in the world perahps with a couple of examples of vey high and low (per capita?) users. I suspect it was in there as an exmaple when the article was first written without an international flavour. GraemeLeggett 20:30, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. - Omegatron 20:40, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Octane of gasoline

The acticle overall is not that clear re octane rating for gasoline. In the US what you see on the pump when is says "87 octane" is actually not the RON (Research Octane Number) but an average of the RON and the MON (Motor Octane Number). Typical gasoline has a difference (called the sensitivity) between RON and MON of around 10: so in theUSA 87 octane is typically 92 RON, 82 MON.

Elsewhere in the world (gEurpoe, Asia, Aust: not sure about other places such as Latin America) what is normally quoted is just the RON (there will often be a separte specification for MON, but the general public does not tend to worry about it).

Question is: is this all too techy for wikipedia or should I go ahead and revise.

Also: re the debate re petrol and gasoline: within the industry people refer to "gasoline" all over the world: but the general public uses petrol in english speaking countries outside Nth America. The term Mogas, for Motor Gasoline (to distinguish from Avgas (Aviation gasoline) is also common everywhere). Another term is Motor Spirit, or Spirit for short. Once again...too much detail???

--GPoss 10:21, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

Page 3

I think we need a lock on this article for the moment. GraemeLeggett 14:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Or an IP block. See User_talk:Omegatron#gasoline_flame_war - Omegatron 14:51, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

81.154.229.150 is one of my compatriots, I fear, RIPE shows them on BT Broadband. GraemeLeggett 15:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

What were you expecting?  :-) Don't worry, we won't make sweeping generalizations about your imperialistic tendencies.

It seems that whoever archived the talk page forgot that we were going to leave a note about the dispute and the consensus decision, however. - Omegatron 15:24, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Well that was fun. Come get me next time before it lasts this long. --Golbez 00:19, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

"This long"? You caught it in two minutes.  :-) - Omegatron 01:09, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I believe that Golbez was referring not to this specific instance, but to the repeated vandalism / 3RR violation on the part of 81.154.229.150 (blocked by Golbez for forty-eight hours). —Lifeisunfair 01:18, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, my usual block is 24h but he had violated the vaunted 18 revert rule. :P --Golbez 01:31, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Octane in percent

I still am confused as to why gasoline octane ratings refer to a percentage (which, in this case can't be over 100%) but fuels with octanes of over 100 exist.

Its percentage compared to another fuel (2,3-dimethylpentane, if my chemistry serves me right). Same way as, say, height can be compared to a percentage of, say, 6 foot - 7 foot would be 116%. --Kiand 19:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

2,2,4-trimethylpentane, according to this encyclopaedia. Ah well. --Kiand 20:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Leaded gasoline causing damage to children's growth?

I learned in my economics course that leaded gasoline had faded out of use, because it had a negative impact on the growth of children (it supposedly caused mental disorders and what not). Could someone investigate this and incorporate it into the article? --Ted 05:53, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

The article Tetra-ethyl_lead seems to cover this. Do you think it should be made clearer that TEL damaged people and the environment in this article? --65.167.23.134 19:34, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

It didn't "fade out of use", it was outright banned in most of the world. Across the EU no new car from 1993 onwards could use it, for instance. It was used a lot later in the EU than the US for some reason, possibly down to EU cars being designed for higher octane fuel - no cars here can touch petrol under 95RON, and yet the US "87 Octane" stuff converts to around 91 RON, for instance. --Kiand 21:35, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

That's just silly. I looked it up, the Honda Civic uses 91 RON in the UK, just like it does elsewhere in the world. --Bollinger 20:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Relating to "The Day after Tomorrow"

Does fuel REALLY freeze at -108*C (-150*F) as they say in that movie when the RAF helicopters go down?

It depends... Gasoline stops burning at -98F, I believe. --SodiumBenzoate 00:19, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

The helicopters used Jet-A fuel not gasoline. --Gbleem 22:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it gels up at a low temp. trentc

Is smell a gas?

apples have smells, so do woods...while we classify these things as solids, how do you explain the smell?

Asking on a page about Petrol, no matter how annoying misnamed it is, isn't going to get you an answer to this. Asking on Smell might. --Kiand 18:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Odors are the result of volatile chemical compounds that are released by a substance as vapor and that can be detected by sensor cells in the nose. Many solids as well as liquids give off these compounds; those that give off a lot are "smelly." Gasoline is highly volatile, meaning that it readily become vaporous, which is why it has a strong odor. In fact, it is these vapors that burn rather than the liquid; hence the need for a carburetor or fuel injection. --Tysto 17:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

if I remember right, the smell in gasoline is not natural--it's added so people can detect the presence of gasoline...important if you have a leak. But the above reason would be why the odor spreads so easily. --Tenfour 14:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The smell in natural gas is added; I believe the smell in gasoline/petrol is it's "native" odor. Dculberson 14:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Origin of "petrol"

So which is it? Does "petrol" come from "petroleum spirit" (opening) or from French "petrole"? (Pharmeceutical section) --Tysto 22:21, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

At some British "Petrol Stations" it can be referred to as "petroleum spirit". For example, in signs such as "Danger: Petroleum Spirit, Highly Flammable!", so i would consider it likely that the former is true (without discounting the possibility of both being true, or having elements of truth). Guinness 15:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I didn't have time to look it up when I asked before, but Answer.com's Houghten-Mifflen Dictionary says the origin is French "petrole".

I'll take your word for it in that case, as, I have to confess that the "petroleum spirit" was an educated guess. Guinness 09:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

It actually comes from both, since they have a common origin! The Oxford Dictionary of English says the following: "ORIGIN late 19th cent.: from French pétrole, from medieval Latin petroleum, from petra ‘rock’ (from Greek) + Latin oleum ‘oil’". It is quite possible that both English and French derived the word from the Latin. Incidentally, if you asked most British people what Petrol was short for, they'd answer 'Petroleum' - but i've never heard anyone talk of 'Petroleum Spirit'... Perhaps its a regional thing? Twrist 15:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

No, the English word "petrol" does come from petroleum spirit. The French word pétrole is an umbrella term referring to paraffin/kerosene. Rusty2005 06:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually I think it's more complicated than that. Pre-War there was a retail brand of motor gasoline in the UK that had the clever name "Petrol" - from all the derivatins you cite. It became a household term in the UK - much as Kleenex or Hoover or Zipper - for mogas/gasoline/benzin/essence/gas or any of the other terms for motor gasoline around the world.212.24.224.18 10:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference to the French page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A9trole will show that petrole is the French for crude oil, as in Compagnie Francaise des Petroles. The French for petrol is essence. Bearfoot 17:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

In the industry the failure of Carless to register their trade name "Petrol" is often cited as a cautionary tale for those using and misusing trade names.Bearfoot 17:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Origin of Terms

This article needs some information on origin of the terms Gasoline and Petrol, especially so for the "petrol" people who have to conform to the American usage. Personally I've always viewed the usage of "gasoline" as unfortunate because of the shortened term "gas". - Diceman 17:27, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I have some definitions from the Oxford Dictionary of English:

Petrol

→ noun [mass noun] (Brit.)

1. a light fuel oil that is obtained by distilling petroleum and used in internal-combustion engines.

ORIGIN late 19th cent.: from French pétrole, from medieval Latin petroleum, from petra ‘rock’ (from Greek) + Latin oleum ‘oil’".

Petroleum

→ noun

[mass noun] a liquid mixture of hydrocarbons which is present in suitable rock strata and can be extracted and refined to produce fuels including petrol, paraffin, and diesel oil; oil.

Gasoline

→ noun

North American term for petrol.

ORIGIN mid 19th cent.: from gas + -ol + -ine4 (or -ene)." Twrist 16:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you should also look up the definition of Living Language.

Rework table of energy content of fuels

I was adding the figures from the Diesel article to the table when I realized that:

1. the figure for diesel looks wrong

2. the figure for gasoline looks wrong

3. there is no single source of data for this table.

I'd like to get a table published by some verifiable source, something like the Society of Automotive Engineers, but have not turned up any easily verifiable tables to use as references. RPellessier | Talk 18:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

It would also be better to include energy content of yellow diesel and those that are LSD and ULSD. tentc

Inflation adjusted gas price graph should include the record prices of the 70s

Without the record prices of the 70s included, the graph does not tell the whole story. Cshay 19:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree on that point, but I'm not sure they should be here at all. This is an article on the substance gasoline/petrol, not specifically on its use in the United States retail market. Why have a graph of U.S. retail prices, rather than say the much differently-shaped graph of German retail prices? Some sort of international market wholesale prices indicating what gasoline itself costs at various times might be useful, but retail prices include all sorts of stuff such as local tax policy that should be dealt with in more specific articles on each country's domestic oil market. --Delirium 08:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice to have a graph of gasoline prices for the last 100 years adjusted for inflation.Trojancowboy (talk) 02:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Clear gasoline

I think what "clear gasoline" is should be mentioned in the article. From my research, it appears to be gasoline that hasn't had dye added to it. Tax exempt gasoline can only be used for certain applications, so it is dyed to catch violaters. Does anyone have conflicting information? -- Kjkolb 09:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

It has been redirected to a relevant article. -- Kjkolb 02:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Contradictory data

These two things contradict:

Note that the main reason for the lower energy content (per litre) of LPG in comparison to gasoline is that it has a lower density. Energy content per kilogram is higher than for gasoline (higher hydrogen to carbon ratio). In simple terms, we burn mass, not volume!

Fuel type	MJ/L	MJ/kg	BTU/imp gal	BTU/US gal	Research octane number (RON)
Gasoline	29.0	45	150,000	125,000	91–98
LPG	22.16	34.39	114,660	95,475	115

If the energey content per kilogram, for LPG, is higher than that for gasoline, why does the table say gasoline = 45MJ/kg, LPG = 34.39MJ/kg?

Because the data was wrong. The problem as I see it is that several different articles have what should be the same data tables but with the information sourced from different places. Some of the data is seriously flawed. I'd really like to see some form of central database of physical constants such that all articles could access the same data set. This would probably need to be implemented in the wiki software. In the meantime, the table here has been upgraded to match that at Fuel economy in automobiles, including adding the reference from which the data has been derived. The reference provided octane numbers for gasoline but not the other fuels, so all other octane ratings remain effectively unreferenced. Needless to say, I'd need to see some pretty compelling evidence before accepting changes to any of the other data in this table. --Athol Mullen 22:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Energy Content...Ideal?

So, due to heat loss, friction, etc, real engines can only extract maybe 10%-40% of the total energy contained in gasoline. So my question is: Are the numbers listed in the table the "ideal" values of energy density? Or are they the average amount of energy a real engine could extract?JabberWok 20:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Oxegenate Blending

The current text is misleading, RFG formerly had a federal requirement to contain oxygen, but there is separate gasoline called 'oxegenated'. I will clean that up, sometime soon.--CorvetteZ51 23:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Petrol Diesel Mixes

I'm interest in learning about Petrol Diesel Mixes, i've heard that its something like when they mix petrol and diesel badly, and it produces incorrect fuel is this true? and does it cost anything, i'm asuming it is a waste material and that it is free, i'm probably wrong, but i'm hoping someone else can clean this up. as i hav been told my truck will run on even the crudest of mixes

When fuels are contaminated with each other, they are often sold to companies with boilers that can run on a wide variety of fuels. It is cheaper per gallon, but not free. Also, obtaining it would be difficult. It isn't something they generally offer at a gas station. You'd have to get a tanker truck to pick it up with or arrange for them to deliver to a large tank that you bought, as they won't bother dealing in small volume. -- Kjkolb 00:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Use as a cleaning product

I believe gasoline was first marketed as a cleaning product - does anyone have further information on this?

No. that was Benzene. Both are extremely flammable, even explosive, far too dangerous for use as a cleaning product. Also, please sign your statements. Martial Law 08:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC) :)

Cleaning product eh? Fire does clean well... Hbdragon88 06:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, gasoline was a waste product until gasolines engines came along. trentc

Broken Link on this page

The link, Gasoline Images - Vintage American gas station and fuel dispenser stock photography, link courtesy of http://www.coolstock.com Links to a 404... Am I allowed to fix/remove it? --— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Cheese Pirate (talk • contribs) 4 October 2005‎

Super

From Super:

In Florda and Alska, as well as in continental Europe, Super was the name for a number of years commonly given to leaded high octane petrol (gasoline). Originally the name denoted premium leaded petrol, as opposed to Standard, which was non-premium leaded petrol. However, with the introduction of unleaded petrol in the early 1980s, Standard petrol was discontinued, leaving only Super, which then became a synonym for leaded petrol in general. This continued until the late 1990s, when leaded petrol began to be eliminated in favour of various different blends of unleaded petrol contain special additives for use with leaded vehicles. The name of these blends varies from oil company to oil company.

--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ewlyahoocom (talk • contribs) 8 January 2006‎

Price Calculating/Converting

I have noticed the Australian fuel price is out of date seeing as Petrol has dropped in price significantly over the last few weeks ($1.40/litre listed here, its now down around $1.10/litre). I am hopeless at maths but have used the Google Calculator to convert it to $US/gallon (it says $AUD1.11/litre = $US3.13/gallon) but I am not sure how accurate it is. Could someone with the skills to do so calculate this correctly? or... could someone list the equation for this type of conversion? Nickuss - 4 October 2006.

Possible math error on energy content table

I'm not an expert, but the energy content of gasoline is listed as approximately 32 MJ/l or 131 MJ/USgal. I think perhaps that should be 121 MJ/USgal, assuming about 3.79 l/USgal. Could someone in charge of this article please check that? Thanks for maintaining this great information resource! SteveVTS 16 Nov 2006.