Talk:Gawr Gura

Appeal

Hello Vami_IV. Yesterday, you left a message "This exact draft just failed at draft, and would fail GNG. Draftspace exists for a reason, and this article was already a redirect for a reason." and returned the article to the previous state. But I would like to make an appeal for the changes that i made.

First, I assume the failed draft you are talking about was the draft that I made on Gawr Gura somewhere in the middle of December. That was a completely different draft that I made from scratch and wrote, and researched on my own. It didn't have a good structure, and was lacking the very important secondary sources it needed. And understandably it was declined, but the newer one I made on 3 January 2021 was a translation of an already existing article from the JP wikipedia page of Gawr Gura. It had all the right structures, and most importantly plenty of secondary sources. So this is actually a completely different draft from the previous draft I made.

Second, I may be naive in challenging a wikipedia expert especially since I'm pretty new to the scene but, I would like to disagree on the claims that this topic wouldn't pass the General notability guidelines. Plenty of reliable secondary sources have reported on this subject such as crunchyroll, and even WIRED magazine has given some coverage too. Vtubers have now already hit the mainstream media, and even Mr.Beast's 2020 youtube rewind also gave some runtime to show a vtuber. So I think people who would want to know about vtubers would like to know about the fastest growing vtuber yet.

Third, I'm still new here, can you help me with how the draftspace works? What will happen to the redirect article if i make a new draft and it gets accepted? Can you even make a draftspace of an article that already exists?

Lastly, Perhaps the reason on why the article was already a redirect was because nobody wanted to go through the hassle of making a new article and just made it redirect because it was easier. Or maybe the subject wasn't notable enough during that time. I checked the history on when the redirect was made, and it was only 1 month after Gawr Gura was announced. It has now been more than 3 months, and I thik that this subject should be notable enough to make an article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Too Much Distractions (talk • contribs) 04:29, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

@Vami IV: fix ping due to unsinged edit Victor Schmidt (talk) 09:18, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Too Much Distractions, I would believe that it may be a good idea to copy this translated version to draftspace, as the version you have made here seem to have some merit as an article. Have a nice day, and... Happy new year! Eumat114 (Message) 10:32, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

First: I was unaware of that, but in my defense, there were still errors like Japanese-text periods in the prose. I hope, considering what I say next, you'll forgive me for not looking into the article I re-redirected from that and other clues.

Second: I am no expert, just an editor with five years' experience. You are correct, and I agree with you, that Virtual YouTubers are now more than ever notable and deserving of coverage. I am, in fact, a pioneer of their coverage on the English Wikipedia; I'm one of the biggest contributors to Kizuna Ai, dating back to the olden days of early 2017, and at Virtual YouTuber, and I've got several edits at Projekt Melody. Nobody not named YAGOO is more aware than me of the notability of VTubers, and that it will only increase. And I have been at the tip of the spear at Hololive Production, trawling through news archives and press releases to support the work that has been done there. Unfortunately, Western media has had spotty reporting on VTubers thus far. Only when they make waves do they make notes; see Kizuna Ai (December 2016), Projekt Melody (February 2020), and Hololive English (September 2020). And I have reasons for not just throwing every Japanese news source - a language I cannot read - at an article with reckless abandon. I did, in truth, do this. I was called out on it, and I enlisted human translators to find and correct errors made by machine translation.

Thirdly: Draftspace exists to censure new articles by new editors, to catch and excoriate what is bad while nurturing and publishing what is good. A draft can be submitted at any time for review, and eventually an experience editor with the necessary user rights will come by and review it. If it passes muster, it gets moved to "mainspace", or Wikipedia proper. This is how Hololive Production was first written. In Gura's case, were a draft to be worked on - and I do that work in a Sandbox page since this redirect exists (read on as to why) - and passed, it would replace the syntax making the "article" at present a redirect.

Finally, that nobody was willing to make an article for Gura is unfounded. You were. And someone else was willing to cause a ruckus by making a low-quality article for Coco (complete with a copyrighted image). Going off of my own judgement and experiences, I already knew in April-May 2020 that Hololive was going to be covered by the English Wikipedia eventually. I knew they were going to blow up, that there was going to be an English branch months before it was announced, and that, as with Kizuna Ai, there would be cheap, low-quality edits and articles, to be followed inevitably by nominations for deletion and clashes with older editors. So I decided to head that off with carefully planned, written, and researched articles, and started planning for that in April-May. I teamed up with other editors, namely Goszei, and the Hololive fan translation community, to make it happen. And it has happened, thanks to a cautious, deliberate, and painfully slow team effort. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Vami IV, note: restored at Draft:Gawr Gura. Please improve there, thanks! Happy new year! Eumat114 (Message) 12:30, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

wow... I'm speechless...

@Vami IV: There is really nothing I need to forgive since this situation is really my fault. Just like a particular rabbit hole, I didn't know how deep and vast Wikipedia culture really was. How much passion you guys put into this, and how high the standards actually were here. I saw Suisei's English Wikipedia article and just tried to follow in their footsteps, translating the JP article to English thinking that's just how it works. I didn't know that there was actually a dedicated and professional team behind it, and it wasn't just some rando that felt like translating the JP article. Just like most people, I took Wikipedia for granted and thought of it as a giant public google docs where anyone writes anything. But as I spend more time on the back side, I (jarringly at first) learned that this was definitely not the case(after being given speedy deletions and warnings for copyrighted images too lol). And of course at first I was kind of shocked and intimidated by this community, but now I have grown to respect it, and frankly be in awe.

I also have kind of a confession to make. Although I know enough Japanese to cover the gaps machine translation leaves behind, the article I wrote still relies a lot on DeepL/Google Translate. This would also mean that I can only read the articles in the references from the JP Wikipedia through google translate, and therefore can't actually confirm the contents by one hundred percent, and I thought that the JP wiki people can be trusted to moderate it so I just ignored it.

Well enough of the ramblings I guess.

So. I would like to ask the question: "What do i do now?".

As in what else am I supposed to do with the draft of Gawr Gura in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Gawr_Gura (Other than the feedback from Eumatt114 of "make draft w/ note ombox for improvement" | Also what do omboxes even do? ). Do I just need to clean up the Japanese punctuation mistakes, and then submit it for review so others can fix it? Or maybe I would need to ask for some Translator help to review my work?

Thank you soo much for being so helpful! (sorry if that sounds a bit passive aggressive lol, I can't think up of a nicer sentence) and also thanks to the other people from the teahouse for teaching me formats too, and helping with the drafts and stuff. Too Much Distractions (talk) 14:23, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Join Goszei and I at the Hololive Unofficial Fan Discord server, and find #translation-discussion. That's where we've worked with the fan translators to get translations of the sources we've used. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 00:21, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

@Too Much Distractions: Drafts have a review process, and can be submitted for review by an experienced editor by using the blue link at the top of the draft page. For more info about how drafts work, see WP:DRAFT.

Regarding the Gura draft in particular, the concerns that a reviewer would definitely raise are (1) too much WP:FANCRUFT-type material (the parts about her backstory and personal interests, for example) that needs to be cut, and (2) lack of demonstrated notability.

As far as I know, the only thing Gura is "notable for" (aka "covered in secondary sources") is her rapid rise to popularity (as the first Hololive to 1 million subs). This is below the level required to have a Wikipedia article (you can read more about the standard at WP:GNG), so unless some more substantial secondary sources come to light, the draft will not be accepted. I would advise working on other articles, as I suspect that Gura will fall beneath the general notability guideline for the time being. — Goszei (talk) 01:35, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

@Too Much Distractions: I thought you were very familiar with this...
so an "ombox" is just the code that I used to display the noticebox explaining the situation, kinda a technical aspect.

Sadly, it seems that as of time being, as noted by other editors, is the current lack of notability. In my opinion, in the future there will be more articles describing her as the initial fantasy goes on, or clears off. Take Among Us as an example, the article was created only in September when its popularity skyrocketed despite its release being 2 years ago. It ain't okay for now (sorry for that) but I believe there's a decent chance it will work out in the future. Meanwhile, you might want to consult some editors proficient in Japanese and Hololive, as I am not familiar with either. Happy new year! Eumat114 (Message) 06:35, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

@Eumat114: yeeahh... I'm not very familliar with anything on wikipedia :p

At the moment I'll just be looking out for and adding news to the draft talk page, and lurking on the hololive discord to ask help when I need to. Thank you and Happy new year to you too! Too Much Distractions (talk) 10:48, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Oops i forgot to mention an user u gotta sign on the same line User:Vami_IV Too Much Distractions (talk) 16:42, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Removed some tags

I think most of the issues in these tags have been solved. The existing sources confirm notability (there is also some systemic bias involved, because things that are well-known through the internet exclusively are usually underserved by traditionally reliable sources. It doesn't really seem to have a fan's perspective, and the discussion made little specific guidance. The only thing I'm wondering about is "intricate detail" and "reliable sources". For example, the "A" thing, I'm not sure about that. It's objectively well known online, but that doesn't necessarily translate into Wikipedia coverage easily. I can't speak or read Japanese so I'm unsure about the source for it. In addition, Hololive has lots of little quirks like this and I don't know if wr should cover them all. Maybe it would be best to reduce this section to a single sentence. Nicknames should probably go too.--Yellow Diamond Δ Direct Line to the Diamonds 21:02, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Sparkl:, what do you think is like a fan wiki? I personally don't see that, it's more of an overdetail thing I thought.--Yellow Diamond Δ Direct Line to the Diamonds 07:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

The article isn't overly long and doesn't really detail on one small thing, instead it's more that it's multiple small things mentioned that are trivial and are not really much of any achievement or professional venture, such as the "a" thing and the costume reveal. More leans toward WP:FANCRUFT. Sparkl^talk 13:44, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that's better described as overdetail (like we don't need to hear about fans waiting in the chat room etc.) rather than a fan's perspective (which I feel is more like effusive praise or unprofessional language or something). I guess it doesn't really matter as long as it goes away. But I'm not sure if I should remove the "a" stuff for instance as I can't read the Japanese source so I don't know the full reason someone wanted to include it.--Yellow Diamond Δ Direct Line to the Diamonds 00:04, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Gura's clothes

Question: Did she really buy her clothes in Japan? Her official bio doesn't really have a specific location. 136.158.27.90 (talk) 08:52, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

🍋☁️🍪 93.136.48.214 (talk) 13:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Sound of the “a”

Can anybody get a source for the exact sound of the “a”? It’s stated in the article to be an open central unrounded vowel, but it sounds a little more fronted to me. It even sounds a little like [ʔaʔ] to me.

But never mind that, is the exact sound of the “a” even relevant? 213.220.123.4 (talk) 12:29, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

New Wikipedia page

Can someone make create a page about senzawa? TheMaggster (talk) 03:08, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

@TheMaggster: Senzawa does not qualify for Wikipedia's guidelines on notable topics, so an article cannot be made at this point. Chlod (say hi!) 04:27, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

That was just a thought because there are a few articles referencing senzawa by the way hears her website. https://www.senzawa.com/ TheMaggster (talk) 07:03, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I read a bit about Senzawa, who had some significant internet popularity before the Gawr Gura personality came about, but I understand that Senzawa likely doesn't qualify for an independent page. I suggest having "Senzawa" as a redirect and adding references of that character into this article instead. Carlinal (talk) 20:35, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

@Carlinal please don't do that – the existence of such a redirect would mean that Wikipedia would be sanctioning rumours linking the two identities, which could potentially create legal issues with respect to the anonymity of Cover's employed talents, not to mention violate our policy on biographies of living persons since there are no reliable sources that connect the two (likely because of said legal issues, and any confirmation or non-confirmation is impossible due to Cover's non-disclosure agreements). ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 06:02, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Perfectly understandable, thank you for this statement. Carlinal (talk) 06:16, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

How about we just ask senzawa if they're the same person here is her website senzawa.com there is a contact page on her website. TheMaggster (talk) 15:58, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I asked on the contact page on senzawa's website if she is gawr gura and why she stopped uploading.  TheMaggster (talk) 03:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

@TheMaggster: I suggest that you stop pursuing this matter, especially considering what @KN2731 has pointed out above. In the unlikely event that Senzawa would respond, such a response would be unusable on Wikipedia due to its PRIMARY nature. Wikipedia is not a place for rumors or speculation; further matters relating to this should not be discussed on this talk page. Chlod (say hi!) 09:58, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Fair point TheMaggster (talk) 14:59, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

These arguments run longer than the page themselves lol. TheMaggster (talk) 15:00, 28 May 2023 (UTC)