Talk:Gender transition of Caitlyn Jenner

Important fact about this article

Please semi-protect this article. If it is left un-protected, it is very likely that an unregistered or newly-registered Wikipedian will change the opening sentence from:

The transition of Caitlyn Jenner refers to the coming out of the American athlete formerly known as Bruce Jenner, making her one of the most famous trans women and LGBT athletes.

to something like the following:

The falsification of Bruce Jenner into Caitlyn Jenner refers to the lie made by the American athlete whose real name is Bruce Jenner, making him one of the most famous men who pretends to be a woman.

Thus, I suggest that this article be semi-protected to prevent this. Any thoughts?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:03, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I have changed it as POV and inaccurate. Reworded to fit a neutral point of view and more encyclopedic tone. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:18, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Please realize transgender people don't choose to change their genders. Trans women have always been women, only in the wrong body before being changed with surgery. Georgia guy (talk) 00:19, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

He chose to be open about it. That's all the lede says - just as it said previously. Nothing has been changed in that regard. And stop edit warring over it. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:21, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Do you really think Jenner actually was a man (not a woman with the wrong body) before her body was changed with surgery?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:22, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Physically, Jenner still is male (as far as I know, there's been no surgery to date). If he was or wasn't a man mentally or emotionally, that's not my call, it's his. Why even ask the question? I'm not him so I can't answer for him. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:24, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

You mean, to you Jenner is not a trans woman at all?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I didn't come anywhere near to what you are ascribing to me. Please, take a breath, this isn't a battleground or a war that needs to be fought, and just discuss without making accusations and drawing false conclusions. How do you think the wording at this time says or implies what you are claiming it does? Because, in all honesty, I just don't see it the way you apparently do. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:28, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

You're saying "Jenner's transition to a woman". This implies that she actually was a man, not a woman with the wrong body, before it was corrected with surgery. Georgia guy (talk) 00:32, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

You seem to be forgetting that the article has the word "transition" in it. If not transitioning from male to female, what, precisely does "transition" mean? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:38, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Having her body corrected with surgery. She has always been a woman, only with the wrong body. Georgia guy (talk) 00:41, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

If that's the only meaning, then this article is premature and presumptive. Has Jenner said she will be getting sex-reassignment surgery? If not, then it's presumptive and created based on WP:CRYSTAL. No surgery has yet taken place, so -- the creation of the article is premature and shouldn't exist based on your definition of the term "transition". Now, if what Jenner says in several interviews is true, she has always felt like a she and there is no "transition", just a public redefinition and personal honesty (on Jenner's part). Obviously, we're going to need more input here. Right now, I'm at the opinion that this article shouldn't exist. I'm willing, however, for someone to show me differently and convince me otherwise. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:43, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

To me, "transition" means a public transition, not necessarily a private one. She went from publicly identifying as a man named "Bruce" to publicly identifying as a woman named "Caitlyn". Barte (talk) 05:31, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

That's certainly what the article confirms, as well. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 05:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Article title

Any thoughts on whether Transition of Bruce Jenner is a more natural title?? I know that we must respect transgender people in general, so the Caitlyn Jenner article clearly shouldn't move; her name is Caitlyn. But this article's title is analogous to a phrase like "the wedding of Bill and Hillary Clinton", rather than "the wedding of Bill Clinton and Hillary Rodham" that everyone actually uses as terminology for weddings. Any thoughts on this article's title?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:13, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

@Georgia guy: I understand what you mean. I think a redirect might be better though. Iady391 | Talk to me here 16:59, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

To what article?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:02, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

As I stated above, if the article is truly about Jenner's transition via surgery, and no surgery is immediately forthcoming, then the article shouldn't exist. Having an article about Jenner in the form of BLP is enough. What in the world would the article title change? The content in the article is basically a copy and past of the Caitlyn Jenner article as it is. We don't build articles around article titles and then change the title when it doesn't fit our agenda. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:10, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

The parent article had a recentism tag, meaning that the section gave undo weight in the broader context of Jenner's bio. Splitting it is one way of addressing that concern--the transition can be covered in full here and summarized, as it has been, on the main article. But of course you're free to nominate this one for AfD. Barte (talk) 17:26, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

It seems the whole thing was just not well thought out at all. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)