Talk:Generation Yes (Scotland)

Unsupported changes to names of founders

Repeated edits have been made to this page changing the names of the founders. However, the source provided supports the list previously given. These changes were reverted with a request for an alternate source to support the claim that this information is incorrect. The most recent of these unsupported edits was made by Swivvlekmk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), previously by anonymous IP 2a02:c7f:b0a4:1d00:a55b:f74c:9cce:2915.

These edits are particularly weird because Swivvlekmk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) themselves added the information they are presently trying to remove against the source provided. Why they would change their own addition six years later without providing a source is something I would like to understand.

(Last set of IP edits were me, forgot to sign in, Sorry!) In general this article seems to have suffered from having been written by people closely connected to the organisation. Just removed some irrelevant content verging on WP:Puffery. I have no idea why people are trying to rewrite the article to exclude a co-founder using information apparently not in the public domain, although one of those cited as a founder (Rhiannon) is currently looking to be selected as a Scottish Parliamentary candidate so perhaps there's an agenda here? Access to a non public domain source would indicate that User:Swivvlekmk might have a personal connection here. --Vitalis196 (talk) 20:01, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

These edits have continued now including removal of the source they are contradicting without any justification or engagement on the talk page. I have made a report on the edit war area and think this user will need to be blocked from further changes or the page protected to prevent further edits at this time --TrinePGTL (talk) 21:25, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

On Wikipedia we don't make edits on the basis of hearsay, or internal information not available to the public. If the source says that x, y and z founded the organisation then that's what we have to go on. --Vitalis196 (talk) 22:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Kirsten Thornton, one of the founders of Generation Yes, has stated that she & Graeme West founded Generation Yes - and that Rhiannon Spear joined later. https://twitter.com/kirst_thornton/status/1309196391454048256?s=21 UsagiDreams (talk) 23:04, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Twitter is not a reputable source, see Wikipedia:Rs. --Vitalis196 (talk) 23:17, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

This article now contains a fictional name. Harper Macfarlane does not exist. This was a pseudonym used by Kirsten Thornton for a short period on YouTube and has no relationship to Generation Yes as well as not being mentioned in the source article. Rhiannon Spear is mentioned as a cofounder in the source article, although the source material is incorrect. I’m sick of the ridiculous edits being made on this article for fun, which is why I, as the author, requested that the article be deleted. It cannot provide accurate information if it is being edited every 2 minutes by people who think that a character from an old Scottish cartoon series (Hen Broon) cofounded a now defunct organisation. I think that this article needs to be removed as it now holds no integrity, but if not the fictional name of Harper Macfarlane needs to be removed at the very least Swivvlekmk (talk) 00:34, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

You didn't just change Harper Macfarlane, you repeatedly removed other names that were listed as founders in the source given in the references, which is a reputable source and one you tried to remove when asked to provide a source to justify your removals. I would like to see a reputable source provided as to why those other names should be removed, contradicting the source already present. Deleting the page, which is a valid and sourced Wikipedia article because you cannot contradict that source without any justification was not a valid deletion. There was nothing preventing you from giving a source for the edits you were making as they were being made, and you were told in the reversions that a source would be necessary for those edits. I would support the removal of Harper Macfarlane as the name is not mentioned in the Herald article. --TrinePGTL (talk) 01:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I’m sick of this, I only set this article up as a favour to a friend and now it’s turned into a battle over some names. 3 of the original listed names weren’t included in the article either but it’s sat there unchanged for 6 years. Only now that one of the people (Rhiannon) is trying to use this article for political gain has it become apparent that it’s wrong. There isn’t a public source that supports Rhiannon’s name being removed, except for tweets from numerous credible sources, but I’m willing to compromise and let her name stay on the article just to end this nightmare. Joe Higgins and Angus Millar were in the original list, and despite not being named in the Herald article I think it’s only fair that they be re-included and the article restored to its original state before the edit war. Graeme West is mentioned in the article but not as a co-founder but his name has been accepted. There seems to be unequal standards about the validity of sourcing here, seemingly based on who shouts the loudest. Swivvlekmk (talk) 01:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I think this last post summarises the issue perfectly. Swivvlekmk seems to have set up this page as a favour to the organisation or a person involved with it. The attempt to remove Rhiannon's name from the article is related to off site / IRL politics more than anything else, specifically Swivvlekmk is attempting to prevent "Rhiannon" (whoever they may be) from using this information for political gain (how one gains from being mentioned as a founder of an obscure youth organisation eludes me entirely...).

Swivvlekmk acknowledges that there is no verifiable evidence to discredit the source, and indeed Swivvlekmk added Rhiannon's name to the list themselves.

This is just straight up political meddling on Wikipedia. It breaks quite a few policies (WP:NPOVWP:OWN etc etc). It needs to stop now. Wikipedia is not the place to stand on a soapbox or tweak articles to "set the record straight" on your political opponents. Vitalis196 (talk) 01:20, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

How is removing a made up name from an article political meddling? I have agreed, based on the guidelines set out, that there is no source to back up the removal of Rhiannon, Joe or Angus and that they should be reinstated. Not sure why I’m still being challenged on this? Meanwhile a completely fictitious name is still included in the article, surely everyone is in agreement that this should be removed? Swivvlekmk (talk) 01:36, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

You are not being challenged on this. As before, the article has been locked to prevent your disruptive edits. If you have productive changes to make then you can propose them on here (in a new section) and they can be implemented. Vitalis196 (talk) 01:52, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I already have proposed a ‘productive change’ and it’s been ignored. I’m quite happy to be disruptive of your vandalism to be honest, so please continue to paint me as the bad guy. Swivvlekmk (talk) 02:04, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Restoration of article

Following multiple vandalising edits this post has been locked containing false information. I would be grateful if the article could be returned to its original state. Swivvlekmk (talk) 02:12, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

C.Fred see above Swivvlekmk (talk) 02:15, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Oppose: As per above, various NPOV issues, links to off-Wikipedia events etc. This was locked for a reason. Vitalis196 (talk) 02:26, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

@Swivvlekmk: You'll need to be more specific in your request. State what information you want removed and on the basis of what reliable sources. —C.Fred (talk) 02:27, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

So you’re happy for a person who is completely fictional to be cited, unsourced, in an article you’ve been trying to ‘defend’ for hours? Swivvlekmk (talk) 02:28, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

The name Harper Macfarlane needs to be removed as they are not a real person. Google the name. Nothing comes up. It was a pseudonym used by Kirsten Thornton for less than a month on YouTube and Instagram. The name is also not mentioned in the only news article being cited to support the names of founders. Swivvlekmk (talk) 02:29, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Also, my request was for the article to be returned to its original state, relating to its content. It can stay locked forever as far as I’m concerned, as long as it doesn’t name an imaginary person. I propose to reinstate the names of Joe Higgins and Angus Millar in addition to Kirsten Thornton, Rhiannon Spear and Graeme West in order to reflect the article as it was for 6 years. But the primary issue is removing the fictional name from the article Swivvlekmk (talk) 02:32, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

@Swivvlemk: The last stable version before this round of edits was dated 15 July 2020.[1] It lists the following as founders: "Joe Higgins, Angus Millar, Kirsten Thornton, Rhiannon Spear and Graeme West". Is that the version you're recommending going back to, and if so, what's the source for Higgins, Millar, and West as founders? —C.Fred (talk) 02:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

That is what I’m suggesting. The article was accepted 6 years ago with those names, why is additional sourcing now required? If it is not possible to return to those names can you confirm that the name Harper Macfarlane will be removed at least? Swivvlekmk (talk) 02:51, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Sourcing is always required. The information is not grandfathered in just because the lack of sources was missed six years ago. —C.Fred (talk) 13:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Names of founders

I took a look at the Herald article used for the source for the founders.[2] On the one hand, it's an opinion column; on the other, it looks to be based on interviews. A few pull quotes:

• "Kirsten Thornton.... I'm one of the co-founders of Generation Yes."
• "Rhiannon Spear.... I was one of the original founders of Generation Yes."
• "Graeme West.... I hadn't been involved in youth politics before, but I got involved with Yes Provan, my local Yes campaign, last summer. GenYes came about out of a recognition that the existing youth campaign didn't have a very high profile."

Only Thornton and Spear make the assertion of being founders of Generation Yes. Graeme West does not assert to being a founder, and Harper Macfarlane is not mentioned at all.

The Guardian article[3] does not mention the founders at all, nor does the Herald's news story.[4]

Unless further sources are presented, we have three options:

1. List just Thornton and Spear as founders.
2. List Thornton and Spear as founders, and flag the item as needing a better source.
3. Remove the founders' names entirely.

I invite comments about which option is best and most in keeping with Wikipedia polices, including WP:Reliable sources. —C.Fred (talk) 02:39, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

From the image caption of the article: Generation Yes co-founders and activists Rhiannon Spear and Kirsten Thornton have both said they will continue to campaign for independence for ScotlandPhotograph: Steve Cox. Listing those two as founders seems reasonable, with or without a flag for better sources.

I also did some digging, and it seems that the effort to remove Spears's name seems to have came from some Twitter disagreement, Thornton seems to have instructed a user to edit this article on their behalf to remove Spears's name. From the contents of this tweet it would seem that Swivvlekmk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is acting on the instruction of one of the people involved. Which makes this all rather messy and uncomfortable. I think this might have to be addressed separately? Vitalis196 (talk) 02:51, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Tweet now deleted, Text was "Spoken to the person who created the Wikipedia page so it’s been rectified, for now anyway!" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitalis196 (talk • contribs) 03:06, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I haven’t been ‘instructed’ to remove anyone, for goodness sake. You’ve been determined to make this personal all night. I think option 1 is the most reasonable option. I’ve said this before, but for the avoidance of doubt, the reason Harper Macfarlane is not mentioned at all in the article is because SHE DOES NOT EXIST. This should really not be this difficult Swivvlekmk (talk) 03:00, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you for reaching an agreement so quickly. The article has been edited as follows:

Generation Yes was founded by Rhiannon Spear, and Kirsten Thornton, Graeme West and Harper Macfarlane in January 2014.

—C.Fred (talk) 03:12, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Additional information regarding founders

So far sources are a newspaper article with interpretations being made of who says what. The Electoral Commission (UK) holds the registration of political and campaign groups so is the definitive source of information regarding this. For Generation Yes it mentions only two people as Officers of the group: Miss Kirsten Thornton as Responsible Person and Mr Graeme West as Secretary.

(121.210.64.238 (talk) 09:34, 26 September 2020 (UTC))

References

This lists people listed as officers of the registered organisation, but not "founders" which is the source of the disagreement in this article. I support the current changes made by the agreement in the above section. I think these two names could be added as "Responsible Person" and "Secretary" using this source as additional information. --TrinePGTL (talk) 10:29, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, Founders =/= Officers. --Vitalis196 (talk) 12:20, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Can I then make the suggestion that since founders is not categorically proven anywhere, you change the language of the article to refer to the registered officers of Generation Yes and use the factual entries in the Electoral Commission website? Possibly with secondary line referring to other early members and list the other names in the newspaper article? (121.210.64.238 (talk) 14:54, 26 September 2020 (UTC))

The electoral commission page lists people listed as officers of the registered organisation, but not "founders" which is the source of the disagreement in this article. The Herald article lists them as founders and it would be contradicting this source to list them otherwise. If you have another source listing a different set of founders by that name please provide it. --TrinePGTL (talk) 17:25, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

As per before, there's no justification to remove or replace sourced information. Nor any reason why the "responsible person" or secretary at that point in time are notable. Vitalis196 (talk) 16:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)