Talk:George Heriot (Edinburgh MP)

Naming

I don't think this article's title is in accordance to WP:Naming Conventions--gordonrox24 (talk) 13:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure of a better one, beyond "the elder". Both men were goldsmiths, which makes it hard to distinguish them by anything other than date... Shimgray | talk | 14:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Sounds good.--gordonrox24 (talk) 01:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Sons

The Register of Edinburgh Apprentices PDF mentions "Adam, son to George H., elder, goldsmith, with John Nasmyth, chirurgian 12 Oct. 1596", and "Michaell, son to George H., goldsmith, with John Carmichaell, tailor 2 Oct. 1593". The elder didn't seem to have a son called Adam or one called Michael - could this have been the younger Heriot's two sons? It's very early for an apprenticeship, though...

James is possibly here:

• James, brother- german to George H., indweller in Langnydrie, with Archibald Cleghorn, cordiner 12 June 1605

I believe that James is here: Midlothian: Edinburgh - Roll of Burgesses, 1406-1700, Volume 5. The Register of Marriages. Errata. Heriot (Harrat), James, B., goldsmith (hagbut), as p. to George Hereot, elder, goldsmyt, who is souerte for extents, waching and airmor 26 Mar 1594 Heriot (Harrat), James, B. and G., jewller to his majesty, as s. to umq. George H., goldsmyith, B. and G. 23 Jul 1633 Baptisms and burials for at least six of James' children by Elizabeth Joyce, and the burials of James himself on 26 Nov 1634, can be found in the parish registers of St Martin in the Fields, Westminster (Westminster City Council Archives) AdamsFamily1MW (talk) 08:35, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

No plausible Patrick (though the lists only start 1583), David, or Thomas are not listed. But none of these dates quite seem to match - if James was indeed apprenticed in 1605, he'd not have married until twenty years later, which seems very late. Shimgray | talk | 14:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The International Genealogical Index has transcribed a marriage between a Patrik Heriot and an Agnes Caldaine on 16 July 1611 at Edinburgh Parish (Edinburgh Parish Register, 1595-1649, Batch No. M119823, Source Call No. 1066688, Printout Call No. 6900815). AdamsFamily1MW (talk) 08:35, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Contrary to Veitch, which makes a number of assumptions based on similar names, Heriot's son David did not live until 1661: the David who died in 1661 was George Heriot's grandson. The will of Alexander Heriott, son of David, written 18 April 1639, reads: "the Remainder I desire shall be equally divided amongst my Brothers and Sisters liveing in Scotland Sonnes and Daughters of my deceased ffather David Heriott..." (Public Record Office: The National Archives, Catalogue Reference: Prob 11/310 Image Reference 51). AdamsFamily1MW (talk) 08:35, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Although Steven claims to reproduce Heriot's will and it is claimed in the sources cited here that David is unmentioned, Steven neglects to reproduce the codicil of 21 January 1623/4 which states quite clearly: "Item. I give and bequeath unto such of the children of my late half-brother David Heriot, as shall be unmarried at the time of my decease, one hundred pounds sterling, to be equally divided amongst them." (as translated from the Scots in William Maitland, The history of Edinburgh (Edinburgh, 1753)) AdamsFamily1MW (talk) 08:35, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

David Heriot's mother's name is unknown: George Heriot had letters of legitimation published in favour of David Heriot, his natural son, in Edinburgh on 24 May 1593, around the time David married Margaret King (see Midlothian: Edinburgh - Roll of Burgesses, 1406-1700 Volume 5. The Register of Marriages. Roll of Edinburgh Burgesses, 1406-1700. Errata.) AdamsFamily1MW (talk) 08:35, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

This PDF gives a list of all burgesses, which includes both Georges, a David, James ("jeweller to his majesty"); no Patrick or Thomas, by the looks of it. The mysterious Adam and Michael are not listed. Shimgray | talk | 15:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Apprentices

From the Register of Edinburgh Apprentices, above:

• James Annand, 1591/2
• James Blaw, 1599
• Robert Fairlie, 1586
• Patrick Home, 1604
• Andrew Robertson, 1607
• George Robertson, 1607 (brother of Patrick Robertson, "servitor to David Heriot, goldsmith")

with the younger

• Mychall Annand, 1598 (son of Thomas Annand, goldsmith)
• William Arnot, 1589
• John Brown, 1590

with David!

• William Cowie, 1594
• George Hill, 1601
• John Lindsay, 1592/3
• Robert Ord, 1605
• Alexander Winraham, 1608

Wife

Moved from the article:

[What is the documentary evidence for George Heriot having been married Elizabeth Balderstone? It seems more probable that she was his stepmother, i.e., the second wife of the first George Heriot, goldsmith, according to latest information; this is an important question which needs sorting, as there is much confusion in the printed sources. Original documentary evidence is needed.]

I'm not sure what the latest information is, but the ODNB is fairly firm on the younger (1563–1624) Heriot's mother being Elizabeth Balderstone, wife of the elder Heriot (d. 1610); the comment seems to suggest that she was the second wife of the "first" Heriot (father to the one who d. 1610). I think I'm going to have to dig all the sources out again and try to make head or tail of this one... Shimgray | talk | 07:24, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 5 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 01:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

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George Heriot (died 1610) → George Heriot (Edinburgh MP) – or George Heriot (MP for Edinburgh) or George Heriot (goldsmith, died 1610). At the risk of needing to find a different example to use for WP:NCP (perhaps Joanna of Austria (born 1573)), this person held a notable position as an MP. He even represented Edinburgh at a meeting with the king during an existential emergency. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support George Heriot (died 1610) → George Heriot (MP for Edinburgh), but would not oppose any other alternative option since use of "(died 1610)" as a non-standard standalone parenthetical qualifier is opaque and therefore unhelpful. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support George Heriot (Edinburgh MP), which is usually preferred over "MP for". -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.