Talk:George Hudson (entomologist)

Requested move 21 March 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Two supports and one oppose after more than a month and a relist. The oppose appears to be based primarily on whether his occupation is ambiguous, and possibly WP:NATURAL. But natural only applies if the name is reasonably commonly used. Yet no evidence is supplied that he was ever commonly known with his middle name, as required by WP:COMMONNAME. Most sources omit it. (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 08:32, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

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George Vernon Hudson → George Hudson (entomologist) – Hudson wasn't using his middle name. See his DNZB bio and note that their bios always start with the full name first, but it then uses George Hudson. --Relisted.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:54, 29 March 2015 (UTC) Schwede66 19:29, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose for now - This person was also an astronomer. Because the article is short, I couldn't tell whether he is primarily either an entomologist or astronomer. The guy also explored areas, like the Arctic. Therefore, having a middle name is distinctive enough. Also, the term "entomologist" is rarely typed and known, but I learned it's a person of insect expertise. --George Ho (talk) 09:25, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• George Ho, in my humble opinion, your opposition misses the point. The primary issue is to sort out the common name for this person; he simply wasn't using his middle name. What disambiguator we use is of secondary importance; it's simply a way to distinguish him from other people of the same name. When I read his DNZB entry, I come to the conclusion that he was much more active as an entomologist than an astronomer. It is of no relevance whether you or others know without clicking on a wikilink what an entomologist is; it's first and foremost a way of distinguishing him from other George Hudsons. When people look for this person, they either happen to know his full name, and they will get to the (moved) target article because of the resulting redirect. If they know him as George Hudson, they will land on the English railway financier's page, from their get to the disambiguation page, and there they'll find the entry for this New Zealander. We should go with the common name and not being able to make up our mind on the most correct disambiguator isn't a reason for opposing this "for now". Schwede66 08:47, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• He was born in the nineteenth century and lived on until early twentieth century. Who knows this person in the twenty-first century nowadays? --George Ho (talk) 02:54, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment for closing admin. Given that this user is not basing his arguments on article title policy, I suggest that his opposition to the page move be disregarded. Schwede66 05:52, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

• Per guideline WP:NCDAB, if natural disambiguation is available, use it. If not, use parenthetical disambiguation instead. Using lesser-known term "entomologist" implies that natural disambiguation is not available and that the term itself is simple. To me, I don't see it as such. From the same guideline: "If there are several possible choices for parenthetical disambiguation, use the same disambiguating phrase already commonly used for other topics within the same class and context, if any. Otherwise, choose whichever is simpler." George Ho (talk) 06:06, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

• Would you mind clarifying whether the above is the explanation as per policy why you oppose the move? I'm asking because I'm not clear whether your "oppose for now" and this latter contribution are related or not, and I'm assuming that it won't be clear to others either. Schwede66 06:13, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

• You wanted a policy-based argument. If that's not a policy-based argument, what is it to you really? I'll clarify: using "entomologist" as a disambiguation term is... undesirable. I tried everything to convince you, but you insist that "Vernon" is not as common as... "entomologist"? Congratulations! --George Ho (talk) 07:35, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Entomologist" as a disambiguation term is not at all unusual. For example, of the 213 articles in Category:English entomologists, 22 use parenthetical "entomologist" for disambiguation. Categories for entomologists of other nationalities show similar proportions of such disambiguations. It is the most common parenthetical used for disambiguations in the various entomologist categories. Paora (talk) 10:00, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

• I struck comments implying that "entomologist" is not well acknowledged. Even when categories display current states of articles, I'm still not convinced that being an entomologist is more notable than being an astronomer or an explorer by looking at the article's current revision. --George Ho (talk) 09:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support. As per request, he's clearly known as George Hudson, and the references, especially his obituary in Transactions and Proceedings of the Royal Society of New Zealandshow that he was primarily an entomologist. Moreover he was a Fellow of the (Royal) Entomological Society - see listing at [1]. Paora (talk) 11:49, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

That's not what the obit says, nor the external links in the article. They use "G. V. Hudson", showing the use of the middle name; the Royal Society link uses "George Vernon Hudson" -- 65.94.43.8o9 (talk) 04:56, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

To be more precise, the obituary uses G.V. Hudson, George Vernon Hudson, and George Hudson. You need to consider that the obituary was written in the 1940s, and it was still common at that time for first and middle names to be abbreviated. It was also common, and still is, for an obituary to mention the full name. It also mentions what is suggested here as the common name. Schwede66 09:23, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

@65.94.43.8o9 — Yes, the Royal Society link uses "George Vernon Hudson", just as it uses the full names for all of the Fellows listed. However, this in no way supports the notion that it was his common name. For example, the Royal Society link also lists Peter Gluckman as Peter David Gluckman, and Philippa Howden-Chapman as Philippa Lynne Howden-Chapman. In general, the title of a biographical article uses the subject's common name, not their full name (unless their full name is the name by which they are commonly known, e.g. Michael Joseph Savage), in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME. The evidence of Hudson's DNZB entry is that he was commonly known as George Hudson, as that is the name that is used for him throughout the article after the initial mention that properly gives his full name. Paora (talk) 12:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.