Talk:George Hunter Cary

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron talk 09:58, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

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• Article history

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• ... that citizens of New Westminster burnt and drowned effigies of Attorney General George Hunter Cary?

• Source: Taylor, Robert Ratcliffe (October 31, 2018). "A Person of Some Consequence: Attorney-general George Hunter Cary (1832–1866)". Ormsby Review. https://thebcreview.ca/2018/12/05/411-the-boy-attorney-general-of-b-c/

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Scott Jarvis (actor)

Created by Generalissima (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 59 past nominations.

Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 06:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC).

• New enough in mainspace and long enough. QPQ present. Hook fact checks out and is in source. No textual issues I can see. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 01:41, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

• Sammi Brie did you forgot to put the green tick? Sounds like you did a review but missed one thing. JuniperChill (talk) 12:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. Thank you. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 13:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:George Hunter Cary/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Generalissima (talk · contribs) 03:21, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: UndercoverClassicist (talk · contribs) 12:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I enjoyed this one -- a nice little article about an interesting, if no doubt frustrating, character. Comments below: I'll follow with spot checks once the content is looking to be where it's going to stay. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Content

• British English uses DMY dates: in templates, you can often add |df=yes to achieve this. Canadian English is agnostic, but as he only spent four years in Canada, I think there's a much stronger WP:TIES argument for BrE.

• This one doesn't seem to be addressed: dates should be e.g. 16 January 1832. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Similarly, BrE avoids false titles in formal writing, so prefers "of the surgeon William Henry Cary" to "of surgeon William Henry Cary"

• There are still a few of these (I noticed jurist and future Premier John Foster McCreight). In a similar way, although I didn't make this explicit, BrE doesn't generally go for e.g. "Prime Minister Starmer" (that is, using a job as a title), preferring "the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer". See e.g. to colonial secretary Edward Bulwer-Lytton, Governor James Douglas appointed Cary (this would be fine in AmerE),

• Still a few of these. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

• I would spell out that King's College was King's College London (perhaps "the city's King's College" if you want to avoid the repetition), since there's a more famous institution by the same name that was widely attended by people of his time and class. Certainly write it out in full as "King's College London" (NB no comma) in the infobox.

• Cary attended St Paul's School in London before studying law at King’s College London: I'd try to avoid the repetition here, though it's hardly a GA dealbreaker. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• People are called to the bar. I'd also explain briefly what this means.
• Could you use the marriage template in the infobox, as the dates are known?
• "Lawmen" is not really a term in BrE. I think you mean "lawyers": "lawmen" in AmerE usually means people with big hats, badges and six-shooters.
• I think it would be worth outlining what the Torrens title system was, as it's quite important to his career.
• He also served ... He additionally became: as written, it's not clear whether this was Cary or Douglas.
• Laws and statutes don't go in italics.
• Despite Cary's dual role as attorney general: I don't think you mean "dual" here (this was only one role: "dual" means "twofold in nature"): you could use secondary if you like, or -- probably better -- simply cut the adjective.
• Only in 1870, several years: why not four years?
• as the South Australian version did not receive royal assent until October 1860, it was likely based off an 1858 draft of the act: suggest making absolutely clear whether it is the Canadian or Australian one.
• Cary likely obtained a copy: BrE prefers probably.

• Still present in e.g. the version implemented in Vancouver Island was likely based off an 1858 draft, A planned debate on the implementation of a traditional land deed system was postponed, likely due to Cary's advocacy and others. I used ctrl-f to cycle through uses of "likely". UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Now see the version implemented in Vancouver Island was likely based off an 1858 draft of the act. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

• by the Colonist: is that a newspaper? Presumably, it was called The Colonist (note italics and capitalisation)?
• In 1859, he entered a conflict with local politician : see above re false titles, though you might want to go for "a local politician, David...", as he's not otherwise well known.
• Cary was arrested for a disturbance of the peace soon afterwards: the technical term is for breach of the peace: I'd link it, too.

  Pedantic, but there's no a in the offence name. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• BrE spells it stigmatisation and organising.
• before ceremoniously "drowning" the ashes: ceremoniously means "respectfully": I think you mean ceremonially, which means "for ritual rather than for real".
• However, the legislation lacked any ability for the town to levy taxes: not quite grammatical: lacked any provision?
• including charging excessive legal fees from the government: not sure I understand what from means here. Are we saying that he charged the government too much money?

• I think I now understand: we want charging the government excessive fees for his services, I think. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• We should put the capitalisation of the British Columbian headline into title case per MOS:CONFORMTITLE.
• his failed investments had led him to dire financial straits: a bit MOS:CLICHE. See also His mental condition reached a critical point in 1865.
• Cary continued to practice law: as a verb, spelled practise in BrE.
• physician-politician John Ash: the MoS dislikes these kind of compounds: suggest John Ash, a physician and politician.
• forging a telegraph which announced: a telegraph is a machine; the messages it sends are telegrams.
• on July 16, 1866: in this format, needs a comma after the year, but as above I don't think it should be in this format anyway.
• a "paralysis of the brain, caused by over exertion": who are we quoting here? We should attribute them.

• Do we know where the obituary is from? In an ideal world, we would cite it directly (copying, if necessary, the citation from Taylor, perhaps as something like "The Times, 17 July 1866, quoted in Taylor 2018"

• possibly exasperated due to the long-term effects of rheumatism.: exasperated means "deeply frustrated"; try exacerbated.

• A small one, but it's exacerbated by, not exacerbated due to. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• favorable: favourable in BrE.
• the newly-founded Colony: no hyphen after an ly-adverb.
• once "came very near spitting at each other".: attribute the quote (it's the Colonist).
• his defense lawyer: defence
• It's spelt cerebral haemorrhage in BrE, but more commonly called a stroke.
• The New Westminster-based: endash here, as the prefix is two words.

• This one still outstanding. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

• Generally speaking, titles like registrar and attorney general should be decapitalised, except when they're in apposition with someone's name ("Attorney General Smith") or used to stand for that person ("Cary shook hands with the Pope and slapped the Prime Minister").

• This is not a GA dealbreaker, but also isn't done (see for instance the jurist and future Premier John Foster McCreight; Cary also served as the de facto Finance Minister of Vancouver Island

Image review: pass

• File:George Hunter Cary (cropped).jpg (and full image): strictly speaking, we don't have a date of publication here, but as the BC archives don't assert a creator, we can reasonably assume that they died before c. 1929, and so that the image is PD.
• File:Carey Castle - Lieutenant Governor of BC.jpg: the copyright here relies on the image being either Crown Copyright, or being produced before 1949, or by an author who died before 1972. Can we demonstrate either of the three? Was the building demolished or rebuilt before 1949?
  • It comes from the BC archives and is dated 1884 - but I luckily found a higher quality scan of the same photo while searching for that. -G

• Now checks out. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• File:Orizaba (steamer), ca. 1870 - DPLA - f6bc15e12425d77df4073358a9ec8ab2 (cropped).jpg: checks out.
• The alt text A cropped black and white photo showing George Hunter Cary isn't of much use to most readers. In general, think about what the point of the image is: here, it's to give us an idea of what Carey looked like. The alt text should, therefore, do the same: give a brief physical description.
• Ditto A black and white photo of George Hunter Cary standing next to his wife, seated

• Now much better. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Sourcing

• The two Nesbitt sources don't appear to be cited in the article, leading to a Harvard error. Did you use them? If not, but you think they're of use to readers or future editors, they should be moved to a "Further reading" section (see MOS:LAYOUT).

Spot checks to follow once other matters are done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: Most of these were pretty small changes so I didn't bother responding to each - I think I've gotten to everything! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Replies above: mostly sorted, a few things still to look at. Here we go with the spot checks:

• Note 1 checks out. Hendrickson includes a couple of nice details -- that Cary was the oldest of ten children and that Cairns was his teacher as well as a pupil of his uncle's (both p. 114). Worth including?

• Would advise addressing the repetition of a former student of Malins and formerly one of Cary's instructors. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

• I don't see any of the stuff about his election for the Legislative Assembly in the body text, though it's mentioned in the lead and infobox. There's a lot of good stuff here in Hendrickson, particularly about allegations of electoral malpractice towards Cary and an explanation of his later enmity with Amor de Cosmos. We should also at some point be clear that the Colonist was de Cosmos's paper, and this should also colour our handling of it as a source.

• I still don't think I see the election? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Second paragraph of political career. 16:12, 15 July 2024 (UTC) Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:12, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course -- I think the chronology threw me a little, as we go from discussing his candidacy in the 1860 election (which presumably he announced in 1859?) to discussing events in 1859, giving the impression of moving backwards in time. I don't know if you could be more specific with the months in which things happened to smooth over this a little? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

• Similarly, we're missing his little jaunt to the gold-fields -- we mention in the lead that he invested in them, but not that he went off there himself under false pretences of convalescence. A lot on this in both Hendrickson and Taylor.
• The second half of Taylor is almost all unused: there's a lot of material here about dodgy business dealings, dubious press ethics and political dynamism. I'd also try to get in the Colonist's rather prickly judgemet: Upon learning of Cary’s resignation, the Colonist hoped that his replacement would be “a gentleman of integrity, ability and colonial experience, qualities that unfortunately have been ‘conspicuous in their absence’.. At the moment, the paper looks rather more magnanimous in our article than it was.

• Any reason not to include the "gentleman of integrity" quote? It really does colour what the Colonist thought of him (in brief, that he was a scoundrel). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Hmm? I did it include it at the end of the political career section. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:02, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

You did -- I'd not quite twigged that it was only a political obituary that included that line. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:43, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

• Taylor doesn't actually say that the Gentleman's Magazine obit was favourable: it's entirely possible for an unfavourable obituary to have a grudgingly nice comment in it.
• His secretary Arthur Stanhope Farwell: Hendrickson has Farwell as Cary's relative. Taylor has "clerk", which isn't a secretary (it's a junior lawyer who acts as an assistant to a more senior one).

• Worth mentioning the family connection? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

• The two Nesbitt sources should really go in date order.

I'll stop there for now to give you a chance to go over those -- GAs don't have to say everything about the subject, but they do need to cover the major aspects, and I think there's enough missing on his political and business career to raise a question-mark there. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: I think that I got to everything here! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:01, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Happy with most of that -- see above for remaining quibbles. As we had a couple of issues raised in the spot check, I'll do another batch in a little while. Once that and the above are sorted, we should hopefully be good to go. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: I think that's everything? Apologies for the strange workflow here, lol Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:16, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Spot checks

• Note 1a: checks out, and later with "riding furiously".
• Note 2: "Good riddance" -- checks out.
• Note 8: checks out, mostly: there's no explicit support for "Despite Cary's secondary role as attorney general of the mainland colony of British Columbia", which is therefore slightly WP:SYNTH -- we've created the implication that things should have moved quicker because Cary was A-G, but I'm not sure that's really defensible (all things considered, that's a fairly minor position in the law-making process).

Lots of reliance here on Hendrickson and Taylor 2018 -- I suspect there's not a whole lot you can do about that, given the nature of the sources. GNG is passed, and I can't find any other sources that have been clearly omitted. Not a major problem, but why aren't those two in the bibliography? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:55, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

@Generalissima: any thoughts on these? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:29, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@Generalissima: (Hopefully) a gentle reminder? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:02, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist Oops! I completely forgot about this again; should be good to go now. If it isn't obvious, I have ADD something mad, lol. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 17:27, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Great -- I think we're good to go now. Passing: nice work. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:36, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.