Talk:George Ronald Richards

Getting started

After a somewhat confusing AfD, I've made a new article from scratch. Janweh64, since you started the first article, do you have other sources that should be incorporated here? Not being an admin I unfortunately can't refer to the page history now that it's been deleted. In either event, I hope this new start is a help. Anyone is of course very welcome to expand on it. Mortee (talk) 02:11, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Here is a mention that could be useful. Gives a little background about his police career

This one describes how it was Richards that hired Paul Dibb into the counter-intelligence operation that got Dibb in some hot water later. Paul Dibb was suspected of being a double agent for Russia. Dibb was at the time just a researcher writing about Soviet agricultural industry, but that is my original analysis.

Reference on Petrov Affair that talks about Richards repeatedly

References

The rest of my material are just sources about where he and his wife are buried, and the name of his daughter.—አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 04:29, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

@Janweh64: thank you very much for these. I've incorporated them into the article, though I'm wondering if what I've put in about Dibbs is as good as it can be and more use could be made of The Petrov Affair (though, perhaps the real details there belong on Petrov Affair). I used up my free views of the Australian by accidentally closing the tab too often - would you be mind checking if it gives the dates for the Dibb Report? If it doesn't I'll try to find them in the sources listed on Dibb Report. Mortee (talk) 22:31, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

@Mortee: Yeah the newspapers website is annoying. That is why I archived it. Take a closer look at the ref above.—አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 00:19, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

@Janweh64: Ah! I missed that. Thanks! Mortee (talk) 00:21, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Petrov affair - sourcing inconsistent

There is some inconsistency around the dates given in the sources about the Petrov affair. Finding more sources could help to make this clearer. Otherwise we have the option of being a little vagure to avoid being inaccurate. I've bolded the dates currently in the article.

• First Richards/Petrov meeting: February 27th in Manne 2014 (p56). February 21st in the ADB article on Petrov.
• Defection: April 3rd on the MOAD page and Manne 2014 (p63). April 4th (after requesting asylum on the 3rd) in the ADB Petrov article

Since the ADB is the odd one out regarding the defection, I went with Manne for the date of the first meeting too. Mortee (talk) 22:31, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Worse, there's also inconsistency about Dr. Beckett's occupation. In MOAD he's Bialoguski's dentist. In Manne (p20) he's a specialist eye doctor who shared premises with Bialoguski and diagnosed Petrov with neuro-retinitis. And there's inconsistency about whether Bialoguski was fired for petitioning the Prime Minister about his supposed mistreatment by the ASIO (Guy1999, p139, McMillan and Mckenzie p.192) or resigned directly to Spry (Manne 2014, p19). Most of this can just be left out, but the sources that mention Bialoguski being fired give that as the reason for him threatening to go to the papers, which is when Ron Richards calls Spry, so it's a little more difficult to get around. Still working on it. Mortee (talk) 23:50, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

@Mortee: I think February 27th and April 3rd was the right decision. The defection date may just be semantics about when "defection" begins (at request or leaving). I would go with Manne and McMillan & Mckenzie as the best source in most matters. Regrettably, the most definitive source on facts, the official historian for ASIO, Horner (2014) is not easily accessible. I am convinced the non-viewable sections hold the answer. Your best bet for info is the new book I found by Frank Cain who also wrote Richard's lemma in Australian Dictionary of Biography. I did not have time to take a look at it yet. —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 01:12, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

DYK - George Ronald Richards

Moved from User talk:Mortee § DYK - George Ronald Richards

I think it is time for DYK. —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 19:22, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

@Janweh64: I was wondering about that. Any thoughts on hooks? About the images - I noticed that they're both showing warnings saying they need tags to show why they're out of copyright in the US as well as Australia. Do you know how to go about that? I could try to figure it out but I don't have experience with it. Mortee (talk) 20:48, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Image problem is solved. —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 21:39, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Richards with Petrov and his wife

Maybe:

... Ron Richards (pictured) was in charge of Operation Cabin 12, the defection of Soviet spy Vladimir Petrov on 3 April 1954.

We should request April 3rd —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 21:46, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Seems like a good start. Shall I put in the nomination, or would you like to? The image warnings are in the licensing box, at the bottom. Mortee (talk) 21:54, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

New version of hook above. I see the image problem now. You nominate (just mention me as second), I will solve the image problem.—አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 21:59, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh my god look at these 132 pictures! —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 22:36, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Turns out the picture is not eligible. The original with the Petroves won't be deleted, but my cropped version might get deleted. I am in talks with the State Library of New South Wales to obtain the license for one of these [1] [2] [3]

[4]. —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 00:47, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

@Janweh64: Cool, thanks for chasing down the images. I'll put in the nomination today or tomorrow (the last full day it'll be recent enough). One bit of work we might need to do is to get Operation Cabin 12 mentioned on Petrov Affair, since it's not mentioned yet and I agree that it's a good link target. Mortee (talk) 18:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Is Operation Cabin 12 the temptation of Petrov to defect OR the actual defection OR all of it?? —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 19:40, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

@Janweh64: The actual defection. The defection of each spy was Operation Cabin N. There was one plan for Petrov, Operation Cabin 11 (also Richards) and when they rearranged things it was redesignated as 12. I forget which of the two involved a chicken farm, probably 11. I can check the sources. If we included that in the article it might make a good ALT hook. Mortee (talk) 21:29, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Be WP:BOLD and add this info directly to Petrov Affair.—አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 22:31, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

@Janweh64: Template:Did you know nominations/George Ronald Richards. I left out the image because fair use images can't be included (and in any case, it's not an especially gripping picture). May I cut/copy this conversation to the article talk page? I think it belongs there and it may be useful to reviewers. Mortee (talk) 00:01, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

By the way, I wasn't thinking straight when I said what Operation Cabin 12 meant; it was the possible/planned defection, not the immediate defection itself, so, basically, the whole thing. Though, Petrov Affair covers mostly the post-defection events and I don't know if they come under the heading or not. Mortee (talk) 00:03, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

OK on all fronts. —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 04:26, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

P.S. I think the hook should use Ron Richards as that is the most commonly used name for him. I only used George Ronald Richards because there are many Ron Richards and using the full name is the most natural disambiguator.

I don't think we should mess with Petrov Affair article. Editors who put the main page together will likely notice the problem and make the necessary changes. I have noticed in the past they are the best editors to deal with such issues. The problem is in that article not this one.—አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 04:54, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure what problem you're referring to. Focusing on the post-defection drama makes sense for Petrov Affair, I just don't know if "Operation Cabin 12" covers that part of the affair or not, which is partly why I linked "the defection" to that article instead. I've piped the links in the DYK nomination to refer to him as Ron Richards. Mortee (talk) 10:54, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I only meant we should not directly edit Petrov affair article to add operation cabin 12. I am happy with the hooks now. Alt 1 is nice and funny. —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 23:07, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Retirement

The ADB ref says he retired 1969. Do any others say 68? JennyOz (talk) 01:30, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

@JennyOz: well caught! I don't think the other sources gave his retirement date so this looks like a pure typo on my part. I've changed it on the page now. Mortee (talk) 08:33, 3 April 2017 (UTC)