Talk:Georgian uprising on Texel

Reworked for Clarity

I shifted the article about for greater cohesion. I also edited the section on repatriation: most returned POWs were imprisoned, not executed. Crocodilicus 21:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Clarification of events on Texel from May 8-20 1945?

Hi, I first found out about the Texel uprising from a passage in Max Hastings' book 'Armageddon' which is about the last months of the Second World War in Europe. I'm delighted to see this article on the battle on Wikipedia and would like to thank those who have contributed. However, there is one point that confuses me. The article states that bloodshed continued on Texel after VE day (May 8) and before the Canadians actually physically arrived and finished things off 12 days later. What exactly was happening in this period? Were Georgians actively resisting still, or does the word bloodshed refer to the Germans executing captured Georgian fighters? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.174.8.253 (talk) 11:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Fighting continued for those 12 days. Georgians were terribly outnumbered but made the last stand... They were forced to fight partisanic battle. Farmers would barry them underground during the day, at night they would come out and resume the battle.

Passage meaning

I couldn't understand this passage:

Stalin considered capture or surrender to be treason because the soldier did not fight to the death, so most of the two million Russian soldiers who had come under the control of advancing Allied forces were executed upon their return.

"Under the control of advancing Allied forces". It seems that those soldiers were under the command of soviet allies, by the statement. Wold it be Axis forces?

I couldn't find anything like that on Wikipedia.

Ihsuss 03:19, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. Is it clearer now, after I rewrote it? They HAD been under Allied control (because they had surrendered or been captured), but WHEN the Russians eventually got them back, well....

StanZegel 03:58, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Stan, I don't know how it sounds in English (not a native speaker), but what about "who had been liberated by the advancing Alied forces". Or "freed". Perhaps it's already sounding like that, for a native. That's why I haven't changed the page.

Ihsuss 21:42, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've revised it again, and hope it is clearer now. One of the disadvantages of English is that we have so few pronouns that it is difficult to know to whom a pronoun refers when there are several parties in a sentence. If this still needs work, I'm willing to cooperate so that it is clear and understandable. That's the advantage of the Wikipedia: things gradually evolve so that the ambiguities get taken out. I think I got off course when I tried to salvage a sentence that was already existing in the original English article on Texel, and I started getting things confused. I should have been bolder in my original editing, but as a newbie, I'm trying to be very cautious and respectul of the work of others. I had confused myself when repying to your first post. Of course it should have said Axis, but I was thinking about when the camps came under Allied control. The POWs had certainly originally been under Axis, not Allied, control. That's what doomed them in Stalin's eyes. Regards...

StanZegel 23:45, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What is your native tongue? I assume your surname is Suss, which I assume is Deutsch. Falls, woheraus kommen Sie?

StanZegel 23:45, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ich bin brasilianer, und ich sprache Portuguesich. And a very little bit of German. See my page for details on my name. About the passage, it seems fine now. Regards.

Though the separate statements are true, I doubt that the impression they give is. I believe these specific survivors were considered heroes in Georgia in the SU, and Stalin didn't touch them. Do we have sources on this, one way or the other? Aliter 00:27, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I based the unhappy ending on Stalin's usual treatment of returned POWs. I have no specific information about the Georgians once they were returned to the Red Army, so I have no objection if you want to remove or clarify it. Being more intimately familiar with Dutch history, you would know more about those details that I would. I was unaware of the nl: version of the page when I added so much to this one several weeks ago. I didn't see anything on the nl: page about the fate of the Opstander when I just looked at it just now. I wish my Dutch translation skills were better, I think much of the information on the nl: page should be here too. --StanZegel 04:33, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My knowledge is mostly a matter of trying to read up on anything I come accross. Eg. I just found: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23028 which has some more information on this. Aliter 16:22, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Those survivors who returned were executed. Reason they fought Germans at end of war was they wanted to appear "nice" to allies. Stalin knew this well. Stalin knew they once were fighting SU, so I am sure he executed them. Though this Georgians were minor part of legion. Here were total of 40 000 Georgians at German side, who fought even in Berlin, some of them from "Bergmann Battalion" became police in Poland and Greece after 1943 as of they were fighting soviet partisans, which were not too many from 1943, as from this time, USSR moved fight outside of most of its land. Those who survived in Texel were executed if they returned, but other Georgians which did not rebel against Germans were POWs of West Allies and did not return or returned later but secretly. I can give example of my own ancestor, which managed to come back very hardly even he was in risk to get executed by USSR, as he was fighting until end of war. --95.104.108.172 (talk) 15:29, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Start

Why do en: and nl: disagree on the starting date? Aliter 22:25, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Cause I messed up when I translated the initial version from the Texel website. Thanks for pointing it out; I've fixed it up now.--StanZegel 04:33, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thank you. Let us hope the error didn't spread too wide, and is caught on the other Wikipediae as well. Aliter 14:04, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 15:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Casualties amongst the Germans

Casulties amongst the germans in the first days of ambush and battle were more than 800, but than rised up to nearly 2000, when reinforcements arrived, after the georgians failed to take over the artillery bunkers. Nevertheless, they still were able to repel several german attacks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.122.141 (talk) 07:50, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The anon from IP 92.196.74.66 is encouraged to provide a source for the new KIAs he introduced. The available numbers are these: the Canadians disarmed approximately 1,500 Germans. A Canadian report to the commander of Soviet SMERSH forces, who took charge of 228 Georgians, listed 470 Georgian and 2,347 German casualties on Texel. In 1949 the German War Graves Commission conducted what they called umbettung and exhumed on Texel 812 bodies (including the 400+ killed in their sleep by the Georgians in their shared quarters) for reburial at Ysselsteyn military cemetery. The above numbers obviously do not add up and make little sense, unless the Canadian report to SMERSH lumped together the German disarmed with their dead. The previous numbers on this page of 565+ Georgians, 117 Texel islanders and 800+ Germans killed, however, are close to the available sources and should prevail.--Gamahler (talk) 20:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm unclear as to the storyline of the other 1 500 Germans, who were not the 812 killed - these are unarmed Germans or disarmed Germans? I presume all Germans on Texel were military personnel. so 1500 German soldiers who were disarmed by the Canadians are reinforcements who arrived later to quell the uprising perhaps? I feel this is not yet fully explained. 14:30, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Victory?

I've removed the result from the infobox, as it's hardly appropriate to call this a German victory.
The Georgians killed most of the garrison and seized most of the island; then the Germans came back and killed most of the Georgians; then the Canadians came and enforced the German surrender (quite a lot of this happened after 8 May); and the Dutch got a lot of hardship, then got their island back. So they could all be described as "victors" at different times. More realistically, they all were the losers... Xyl 54 (talk) 23:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Result

The result in the infobox was changed from "Not applicable" to "German tactical victory", with the edit summary "There WAS a clear-cut result; it didn't have any effect on the war, of course, but there was a clear result nonetheless"
I've changed it back, as it wasn't clear-cut at all, for the reasons outlined above, and I've added a footnote to that effect. If anyone has a reason why the German success should be singled out, the discussion is open. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I can see someone has changed it to Canadian mediated surrender, I've included a line about the Germans quelling the uprising. I think those two lines best summarize the events.

Europe's last battlefield?

The Battle of Odžak happened and ended prior to this, so I will remove BBC's claim. --Steverci (talk) 17:18, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

This is not just BBC's claim. See here. And the Wikipedia article on Battle of Odžak is problematic, purely sourced and unreliable. This has been noted on its talk page. I failed to find any reliable source on the Battle of Odzak on Google Books. --Kober^Talk 17:27, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Battalion number clarification?

This article seems to refer to the 882nd Infantry Battalion, when other pages on the Georgian Legion (1941-1945) seem to predominantly refer to the 822nd Infantry Battalion as Königin Tamara. So for the sake of historical (and article) clarity, which is the correct one? 2A02:A443:FA31:1:6974:BF57:3D2D:64AD (talk) 19:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)