Talk:Gergely Karácsony

Language Skills

There are two questions:

• Is there support in reliable sources for the claim that he only speaks Hungarian? We'd need an RS actually saying that he only speaks Hungarian - the simple fact that he's been interviewed in Hungarian doesn't, by itself, mean that he can't speak other languages.
• If there is such support, is it worthwhile putting the statement in the article? Why is it important? He also (at least based on the pictures) needs eyeglasses to see well, but I wouldn't say that's relevant to include in the article...

BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 21:08, 13 May 2021 (UTC) ETA: Pinging JavaHurricane and Politrukki BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 21:16, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Got to agree that this is an odd thing to put in a biography, even if it is properly sourced. Certainly not the sort of thing you normally see for biographies of politicians. And citing a source which states that he doesn't speak English for this is just plain daft. There are other languages too... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:45, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

BubbaJoe123456, the listed sources are:

1. The Economist (checked the full article, I see no mention at all)
2. Newsbeezer (claims that its source is hirado.hu, Híradó is the main news program of MTVA, the Hungarian public broadcaster, we should probably assume that's not unbiased)
3. Mandiner, Mandiner 2 (Mandiner, unlikely to be unbiased)
4. Magyar Nemzet Magyar Nemzet 2 (Magyar Nemzet, just read the article lead. useless)
5. Origo, Origo 2 (Origo (website), again, read the lead. useless)
6. Telex.hu (Haven't checked for bias, but not a proper source for this statement, according to machine translation it says "Too bad he told the Economist reporter. I assume, in Hungarian, with an interpreter, since he doesn't speak English" like a passing mention somewhere in the middle. But it links a Facebook post by Karácsony which actually is useful)
7. hvg.hu (Heti Világgazdaság, according to machine translation it says "then came Balázs Fürjes, the Prime Minister and Csaba Dömötör, Secretary of State of the Prime Minister's Office, who drew attention to Christmas's incomplete knowledge of English."

If the sources (the ones that aren't obviously biased) say anything, it's that his English isn't perfect. There is no source for him not speaking English. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 03:34, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Telex, HVG and international media are reliable and trustable sources here. Magyar Nemzet, Mandiner and Origo are part of pro-government propaganda, which often employs character assassination and is at the level of silly English tabloids. --Norden1990 (talk) 08:26, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Telex is independent and probably generally reliable news source. I guess my only reservation would be that it's less than one year old. Anyway, Telex paints the picture:

1. Karácsony called Orbán "short and fat" in The Economist, later apologising
2. Fürjes and Dömötör criticised Karácsony's English skills
3. Karácsony acknowledged that Orbán speaks better English.

One of the sources, the one that you labelled "Mandiner 2" is probably the only source – I didn't check Origo sources, for obvious reasons – that supports the claim that Karácsony only speaks Hungarian: Mandiner says that Karácsony does not speak any foreign language. I wouldn't accept that as a fact. The article focuses on Karácsony's usage of interpreters.

HVG describes the attack on Karácsony's English skills as a governmental propaganda effort. Politrukki (talk) 15:48, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Of course it says that, they are leftist. Last week they had to pay some half a million forints for libell or what

https://mandiner.hu/cikk/20210324_tota_w_arpadot_elmarasztalta_a_kuria

The "independent" AND "reliable" author worked independently and reliably for the independent and reliable government of independent Ferenc Gyurcsány of Hungarian Socialist Party. LOL... And this newslet is considered to be reliable... LOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.146.115 (talk • contribs) 16:35, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Next time you don't sign your post I'll make your signature pink. You've been warned. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 17:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

With "independent" I meant independent of government or corporate interests. Telex is crowdfunded, so it's not exactly corporate media. In Wikipedia guidelines independent source has different meaning. With "generally reliable" I meant this:

News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors).
— WP:NEWSORG

The caveat here is that Telex may not have history enough to be an "established" outlet. But the cited Telex piece describes the events in disinterested tone without taking sides, so I wonder why you would consider Telex unreliable for simple facts that I mentioned above. Politrukki (talk) 12:30, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

I answered to Norden1990's remarks about hvg.hu. Telex.hu was born when several journalists left index.hu and established a new newslet as a protest against the new owner of the index.hu. Telex.hu is of course, independent and reliable-if you forgot the fact, that its vice editor in chief or what, the former editor in chief of the index.hu, Mr Dull was in close contact with opposition leaders via mobile during the scision of the former index.hu and IS in close contact with them now. They established telex.hu nine days BEFORE they were invited to settle their dispute with the new owner... They denied this later (it is however proven) and tried to diminish the importance of the former (however, the new owner of the index.hu published the call list of Mr Dull' s office moblile - so another lie busted)'So, yes, totally independent. And it is crowdfunded - by a Checz billionaire...

Sources:

https://hirtv.hu/ahirtvhirei/nem-tagadta-dull-szabolcs-hogy-dobrev-klarat-hivogatta-2505854

https://www.origo.hu/itthon/20200904-index-uj-tarhalas.html

https://m.hvg.hu/gazdasag/20200922_telex_adomany_cseh_bakala

https://www.origo.hu/itthon/20210517-dull-szabolcs-dorosz-david-egyeztetett.html --91.104.238.151 (talk) 17:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

BubbaJoe123456: your mention of JavaHurricane and myself didn't work because instead of adding a new line you modified an existing line, see Help:Fixing failed pings. Politrukki (talk) 15:55, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't accept this categorisation that this and that are evil propagandists, while the others are angels. Norden, you speak Hungarian, it is really odd that you say that mandiner is useless... you are the one who is biased.

And the reason why we should insert it? Pretty simple. To obtain a degree, AND to start doctoral studies AND to be an associate professor at a university it is NEEDED to have STATE LANGUAGE CERTIFICATE. He obviously does NOT have one, OTHERWISE he could have shown it to the public, which raise the question HOW HE MANAGED TO DO THESE WITHOUT Certificate. This issue could end his whole career. Norden, why don't you insert the report of the azonnali.hu which asked him about his certificate and he answered that he doesn't have any...?

https://blog.atlatszo.hu/2013/12/csak_99_kepviselo_valaszolt_a_nyelvvizsgajat_firtato_kerdesunkre/

https://kimittud.atlatszo.hu/request/kepviselok-nyelvvizsgaja#incoming-3169

He admits here that he did not have state language certificate: https://mandiner.hu/cikk/20210514_bolcsibe_nem_jartam_remelem_nem_gond — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.226.35 (talk) 12:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Interviewed by the Euronews: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vsqjMkgwsdQ&t=106s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.226.35 (talk) 13:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The English-language Wikipedia does not exist to propagate petty points-scoring amongst political opponents. Nor does it add content based on entirely unsourced assertions about what an individuals qualifications need to be. And please note that the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy applies to comments posted on talk pages too - if you persist in making unsourced claims about issues which might 'end someone's career' you are liable to be blocked. Go take your politics somewhere else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Unsourced assertion what qualification need to be? He himself said that today what kind of "language qualification" he has, read the last source pls. There is a sentence there: "lektorátusi nyelvvizsgával rendelkezem, de ezt már tudják" and read this: https://magyarnemzet.hu/belfold/elsoporheti-karacsonyt-a-nyelvvizsga-gate-9796082/

Or if you don't find the second largest Hungarian daily reliable enough, than go to https://mandiner.hu/cikk/20210514_bolcsibe_nem_jartam_remelem_nem_gond

His own words...

In the magyarnemzet.hu source there is a sentence there: "Nem akkreditált nyelvvizsgát - ilyen a lektorátusi nyelvvizsga is - nem lehet és lehetett diplomák kiadáshoz elfogadni." It is a quote from the Hungarian Office of Education. It is OFFICIAL , legally underpinned. Not an opinion or something. This IS the law in Hungary.

Ask Norden1990 to translate to you, or use GoogleTranslate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.226.35 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:No original research. And learn to sign your posts. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Where is the original research? Both information and the conclusion can be found in a secondary source, magyarnemzet.hu. I just added his own words, cause I see that you tend to ignore magyarnemzet.hu for political reasons... Henry viiii — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.226.35 (talk) 16:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

'Political reasons'? I know very little about Hungarian politics. I don't need to, since the issue under discussion here is whether a biography about a living person needs to contain an entirely context-free assertion about said persons supposed inability to speak a foreign language. One only needs familiarity with the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy, and with the way biographies in general are normally written, to understand that this is highly unlikely to be seen as appropriate, regardless of who the biography is about. I suggest you wait a few weeks, to see whether this story actually has any real long-term significance, and then come back with a proposed edit which would explain to our readers why it would matter whether a Hungarian politician could speak English. Using an explanation derived from sources that don't look like tabloid editorialising. If it has actual consequences, there will be a real story to report. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:44, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

When I said you, I meant you (plural), please scroll up to see what others think of my sources (evil propagandist, etc). --91.104.226.35 (talk) 19:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Only you said "evil propagandist". You're arguing with yourself now? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 19:54, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

hmmm, read the comments of Norden1990 above...

"Origo, magyar nemzet, mandiner are parts of pro-government propaganda which uses character assassination techniques and is at silly English tabloid level"

Ohhhh, the great unbiased characterisation of an impartial mind...!

LOL... --91.104.226.35 (talk) 20:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Origo.hu is a fake news portal and not a reliable source regarding Hungarian domestic politics and international relations. It's a fact. If the situation escalates (e.g., if the university launches an investigation under political pressure), the case of his degree should be mentioned, but until then, everything is just guesswork and original research. --Norden1990 (talk) 22:20, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Given the latest developments in Hungarian politics, it is a FACT that he is unable to speak foreign languages, he admitted it, got busted several times, what is more the dean of his former university confirmed it.Plus he lied about his PhD studies at least twice. An investigation of journalists is on its way - they required copies from his application. Shall I cite the sources?--91.104.168.1 (talk) 15:47, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

How about citing some credible non-tabloid sources that actually explain why this of any long-term consequences, so we can do the same for our readers. Because until you provide evidence that this is of actual biographical significance, rather than just another manufactured story of the week from partisan media, it isn't going in the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:17, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

It is really weird that you call his own words partisan media ("I speak a very special English, my English is hyperpassive").Plus he was an associate professor of a university for some 8 years - I think it is important to mention it, and he was fired for his lack of knowledge of English... The dean of the university himself states it... And Mr Karácsony claimed at least two times that he holds a PhD degree, while it was untrue. And yes, it must be embarassing for him that he flees when asked in English (I can insert the links if you want...), and gets furious when he is asked about his English, nevertheless he is gonna be the next PM of Hungary. If we take a look at the incumbent PM's bio, we find that he was at the age of 14, a secretary of the Communist Party in his class. Why is it there? There was such a fuss in Hungary, that it made notable to mention it. The same applies here.--5.204.93.146 (talk) 14:46, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

BTW:

https://hungarytoday.hu/press-roundup-budapest-mayor-karacsony-criticized-poor-english/

https://mandiner.hu/cikk/20210515_karacsony_telex_bozoki_toka_belfold

In this later: This month, a fellow professor of Karácsony states that K. participated in the writing of an English article - how sad that Mr K. himself said that (in 2004!!!) it is fake. It is ongoing event, but it is not prohibited in the WP to report ongoing issues. Mr K was interviewed recently, you can not say that it is a one sided story.--5.204.93.146 (talk) 14:58, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Another, not right wing newslet:

https://index.hu/belfold/2021/05/17/karacsony-gergely-angol-nyelvtudas-kampany-economist-orban-viktor/amp

https://telex.hu/belfold/2021/05/17/karacsony-gergely-atv-nyelvtudas-doktori-cim-99-mozgalom-miniszterelnok-jelolt-gyurcsany-ferenc-dobrev-klara-ellenzek --5.204.93.146 (talk) 15:10, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

https://newsbeezer.com/hungaryeng/index-domestic-andras-lanczi-gergely-karacsony-left-university-as-if-he-could-not-achieve-the-expected-success/ --5.204.93.146 (talk) 16:45, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

So, nothing from any credible source which directly states that this is of any real long-term political significance. Just typical political sniping, so far. No reason why it should go in a Wikipedia biography (the English-language one, or apparently the Hungarian one either, where you have had no better luck, I see). And please note that this isn't a forum. We aren't interested in your personal opinions on what Karácsony might find 'embarrassing'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:49, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

What political significance has it that Boris Johnson speaks Latin? I go and remove it. And why should we omit the oppinion of a DEAN of a famous Hungarian university?--37.234.197.109 (talk) 11:57, 21 May 2021 (UTC) And on the Hungarian Wiki, I managed to insert the topic, only they could not agree on the degree he has...

I cited journals from all side of the political arena, you just didn't give a f..., without reasoning...LOL...--37.234.197.109 (talk) 11:58, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge of 99 Movement into Gergely Karácsony

Since Karácsony withdrew from the primary, is this movement still going forward or is it a topic better covered on Karácsony's article? (t · c) buidhe 08:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Strongly agree, merged. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Usual carefully pro-left wing propaganda

There is nothing whatsoever controversial to read about Karácsony in this article. As if he had done nothing as mayor deserving the slightest criticism in the past two years. The usual New York Times / BBC / Deutsche Welle lenses through which Karácsony is seen as a victim of the evil Fidesz government. His idiotic regulations inducing traffic jams, plans to sell the Budapest city hall? Do these have to be left out of the article because liberal media refuses to acknowledge these as genuine controversy around his person and instead reframe the narrative to portray him as victim of evil Fidesz propaganda? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4C4E:249F:1200:8A4:C3B4:82E0:1BF (talk) 07:21, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

promises, promises?

"The reconstruction of the Metro Line M3 was finished under his term, but the lack of accessibility and air-conditioning remained an unfulfilled campaign promise."

At least today (2024), Metro Line M3 is fully accessible (see https://bkk.hu/menetrendek/, select "M3" from the list of routes, select any station. The resulting timetable will show an "accessible" symbol at all stations...

Metro Lines M1 and M2 remain mostly inacessable for people with mobility issues, M3 (and the relatively new M4) however are not affected... 2001:8003:4238:A300:CDB1:A78:41C4:39C8 (talk) 07:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)