Talk:Germany at the Olympics

West Germany

Should be listed as a separate team like Saarland and East Germany.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:14, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, now it is listed. But there is no way to see those West German team achievements, as it redirects back to this. And those are grey here. So it's now SNAFU, or what? 82.141.66.217 (talk) 10:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality, or an original research issue

The article, somewhat confusingly, adopts a different treatment of West German and East German participation in the Olympic Games to that adopted by the IOC. It can be learned from the footnotes that the IOC classifies German participation in the games via four codes: unified Germany (before and after division), East Germany during division, West Germany during division, and united German teams during division.

The article instead lumps unified Germany, West Germany and united Germany all together on the one hand, and then East Germany separately on the other hand. The somewhat vague justification given for this treatment is that West Germany's national olympic committee had the same name as the pre-division German national olympic committee. Even if this justifies putting West Germany together with unified Germany (and I do not think it does), it doe snot justify putting the united German teams with West Germany instead of with East Germany.

The article seems to be erring on neutrality by preferring the legitimacy of West Germany over East Germany, which may be on a post facto basis since the contemporary German state has constitutional continuity with West Germany. This would be fine if it was supported by neutral, reliable, independent third party sources, or at least it stacks up between competing reliable sources, but it does not. This causes me to suspect some original research on the part of the editor who adopted this treatment.

The neutral and clear manner to treat this would be to break up the narrative and any statistics clearly into: 1. unified Germany (or possibly, pre-division Germany and post-reunification Germany separately), 2. East Germany, 3. West Germany, and 4. united German teams during division. This is how the IOC treats the issue and no case has been made out for why Wikipedia should department from this treatment. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:10, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

The case is: Germany is one nation that has been divided into separate states after WW II but not different nations. The German athletes participated at the Olympic Games in a united team until 1964, which underlines this fact. So it's simply logical to sum up their achievements in sports. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.7.24.223 (talk) 23:07, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Anti-German POC pushers, as usual. -- Matthead  Discuß   21:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

It is not "just the same name". Today's Germany is precisely the same country (although larger in size) as the "West Germany" of 1949-1990. And its institutions are the same as well. The former German Democratic Republic dissolved, its (newly founded states) joined the Federal Republic of Germany (aka "West" Germany - never an official descriptor but only a handy moniker like N/S Korea, neither of whose uses it in its name), its sportspeople were now under the FRG's institutions - completely the same as before unification. So from a judicial point of view, the reunification was no different from Saarland's joining in the 50s, although on a greater scale - one country stopped existing, its people now belonging to another one. Since international law draws a direct line from the German Empire of the 19th century via Weimar Republic and Third Reich to the FRG, assuming continuity in other aspects like sports is at least sensible. To judge from different TLAs about different entities could be a counter argument, but I do not think that there is a political reason behind it. During division, "GER" could have been misleading, so FRG and GDR. Now GER is clearer than those, so FRG has been reverted. --Ulkomaalainen (talk) 16:27, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

There is an incredible amount of discussion on this in Talk:All-time_Olympic_Games_medal_table and its archives. So far it has been impossible to find a consensus on how to treat Germany and its various NOCs. (It was pointed out that this lack of consensus actually seems to imply a violation of the "basic arithmetic condition" of WP:No original research.) As an alternative, I suggested to provide separate information on nations instead of NOCs. There are plenty of sources on the web that do this, including Europe's largest news magazine, which also combines medals of Russia and Soviet Union (this may be more problematic, since Russia is not the legal successor of the Soviet Union, while Germany is the legal successor of all German NOCs). Below a reduced table, with rows only for Americans and Germans. For Germany, "N. Summer" and "N. Winter" are the Games where at least one German athlete participated. This takes into account that Germany was banned 5 times; and ignores that during 2 boycotts only parts of Germany participated:

Country	№ Summer	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total	№ Winter	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total	№ Games	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Combined Total
United States (USA)	26	974	757	668	2399	21	87	95	71	253	47	1061	852	739	2652
Germany (GER)	24	411	432	461	1304	19	128	129	101	358	43	539	561	562	1662

Kraut Funding (talk) 09:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

References

Medal table

As every Country at the Olympics article needs a medal table, I've been slowly going through each one and bringing them all into a unified standard. This is of course based on the All-Time standings table which itself is based on the official IOC data. All of Germany's participation as Germany (GER) is noted correctly in the table. Please stop reverting, or manipulating, as anything else would not be objective to the available data. West and East Germany as well as the Unified team have their own articles. Jmj713 (talk) 05:38, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

This article is about "Germany" at the Olympics and not some unofficial, non-existent IOC medals table. See: Germany at the Summer Olympics & Germany at the Winter Olympics. --IIIraute (talk) 05:46, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

It's about Germany, you are right. Germany only participated as GER according to IOC records, which is why I added this table, which should be part of every County at the Olympics article. Please undo your revert, as you are not being objective at all here and simply pushing your own POV. Jmj713 (talk) 05:47, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Germany is a country. This article is about Germany at the Olympics, from 1896-now. --IIIraute (talk) 05:52, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Which is exactly what the table shows. Please reinstate it. Jmj713 (talk) 05:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Right. Hindustanilanguage (talk) 05:56, 20 April 2013 (UTC).

No, your biased, anti-German table shows some weird political IOC definition of "Germany". This article is about the country "Germany", at the Olympics - not some IOC-code!.--IIIraute (talk) 06:04, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Note: What you did is not only to split the medals between East and West Germany, but into four entities (by country-codes): GER, FRG, EUA, GDR - only displaying the "GER" medals in the table - although FRG, GER and EUA have always had the same German National Olympic Committee (NOC) recognized in 1895, located in Frankfurt, and the same NOC President (Willi Daume, 1960–1993). The current Federal Republic of "Germany" entity (GER) you are referring to, does not include the medals won by the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) from 1945-1990, although according to international law, we are talking about the very same sovereign country - just now again with the country-code (GER). Please also note: The original code designations were "GER" for the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) and "GDR" for the German Democratic Republic (East Germany). In 1980 the West German code was changed to "FRG" (which is currently also applied by the IOC in retrospect to all medals won by the Federal Republic of Germany, between 1945-1990) without giving any reason - thus they are not combined - strange, but true. However, this article is about Germany at the Olympics, from 1896-now, and not some weird and confusing IOC country-code definition of "Germany".--IIIraute (talk) 06:10, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not biased, nor am I anti-German, as that would be a POV. You appear to be pro-German, which is also POV. And you yourself just outlined the reasons for how the medals for various German teams are counted. So, again, please revert back the factual table as contained in other such articles. Jmj713 (talk) 08:23, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

No POV, but "clearheadedness". This article is about the country Germany at the Olympics (1896-present), not the IOC-code "GER". There is no obligatory principle "for how the medals for various German teams are counted" as the IOC itself does not publish all-time tables, and publishes only unofficial tables per single Games. Therefore your table is in violation with WP:No original research. The official source for the German National Olympic Committee (DOSB), that is also given in the infobox, does list all the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012 → [1], and not only for the IOC-code "GER".

The lead makes clear that this article ia about the whole history of Germany at the Olympics, from 1896-present: "German athletes have taken part in most of the Olympic Games since the first modern Games in 1896. Germany has hosted three Olympic Games, in 1936 both the Winter and Summer Games, and the 1972 Summer Olympics. In addition, Germany had been selected to host the 1916 Summer Olympics as well as the 1940 Winter Olympics, both of which had to be cancelled due to World Wars. After these wars, Germans were banned from participating in 1920, 1924 and 1948. While the country was divided, each of the two German states boycotted the Summer Games: in 1980 West Germany was one of 65 nations which did not go to Moscow in protest at the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and in 1984 East Germany joined the Soviet Union (and several others) in the boycott of the Summer Games in Los Angeles."

...and also makes clear that the medal count does include all German athletes. "Including the Winter Games of 2010, German athletes have won 1618 medals : 528 gold, 542 silver and 548 bronze. The IOC currently splits these results among four codes, even though only the East German Democratic Republic (GDR) from 1968 to 1988 had sent a separate team to compete against the team of the German NOC that represented Germany (GER) since 1896."

Please orientate yourself on the corresponding articles → Germany at the Summer Olympics & Germany at the Winter Olympics and their medal table content. --IIIraute (talk) 17:51, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

So then I believe we've reached a compromise, since the body of the article enumerates everything you've described above, and elsewhere in other supporting articles, while this article, as part of the series of Country at the Olympics articles, can have both: the information you've describe that's available in the lead and the body, and the medal table which adheres to the available official data. Also, a second point, I'm not talking about medal counts or all-time tables (and, moreover, math is not OR) - I'm simply talking participation, which is my sole reason for going through each of these Country at the Olympics articles and adding these tables, which is a lot of work. Some countries don't even have these tables, and this one didn't. Jmj713 (talk) 18:18, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

The medal table for this article is supposed to resemble the medal tables of the corresponding articles - for example → Germany at the Summer Olympics:

Games	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total	Rank	Team
1896 Athens	6	5	2	13	3rd	Germany
1900 Paris	4	2	2	8	7th	Germany
1904 St. Louis	4	4	5	13	2nd	Germany
1908 London	3	5	5	13	5th	Germany
1912 Stockholm	5	13	7	25	6th	Germany
1920 Antwerp	–	–	–	–	–	not invited
1924 Paris	–	–	–	–	–	not invited
1928 Amsterdam	10	7	14	31	2nd	Germany
1932 Los Angeles	3	12	5	20	9th	Germany
1936 Berlin (host nation)	33	26	30	89	1st	Germany
1948 London	–	–	–	–	–	not invited
1952 Helsinki	0	7	17	24	28th	Germany
	0	0	0	0	–	Saar
1956 Melbourne/Stockholm	6	13	7	26	7th	United Team of Germany (EUA)
1960 Rome	12	19	11	42	4th	United Team of Germany (EUA)
1964 Tokyo	10	22	18	50	4th	United Team of Germany (EUA)
1968 Mexico City	5	11	10	26	8th	West Germany
	9	9	7	25	5th	East Germany
1972 Munich (host nation)	13	11	16	40	4th	West Germany
	20	23	23	66	3rd	East Germany
1976 Montreal	10	12	17	39	4th	West Germany
	40	25	25	90	2nd	East Germany
1980 Moscow	boycotted				–	West Germany
	47	37	42	126	2nd	East Germany
1984 Los Angeles	17	19	23	59	3rd	West Germany
	boycotted				–	East Germany
1988 Seoul	11	14	15	40	5th	West Germany
	37	35	30	102	2nd	East Germany
1992 Barcelona	33	21	28	82	3rd	Germany
1996 Atlanta	20	18	27	65	3rd	Germany
2000 Sydney	13	17	26	56	5th	Germany
2004 Athens	13	16	20	49	6th	Germany
2008 Beijing	16	10	15	41	5th	Germany
2012 London	11	19	14	44	6th	Germany
Total (GER)	174	182	217	573
Total (GDR)	153	129	127	409
Total (FRG)	56	67	81	204
Total (EUA)	28	54	36	118
Total (SAA)	0	0	0	0
Total	411	432	461	1304

This type of table is in ↑↑ accordance with all corresponding articles, including the IOC-data given in the "All-time Olympic Games medal count" article. We only need to combine the Germany at the Summer Olympics & Germany at the Winter Olympics medal table content. The official source for this article is the Deutscher Olympischer Sportbund (German National Olympic Committee) which does list all the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012. --IIIraute (talk) 18:36, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Since the above table is already presented elsewhere as you've noted, I'll go ahead and reinstate the previous table here as per our compromise. Jmj713 (talk) 19:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

What are you talking about - what compromise? As this article is about "Germany at the Olympics" from 1896-present (and not only the IOC-code "GER"), the medal table will be dasplayed as shown above and include the results for Germany from 1896-2012. There is only one official source, and that's the DOSB, which does list all the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012. --IIIraute (talk) 20:10, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

You outlined the reasons why the IOC counts Germany as it does, and you pointed out yourself that the combined tables are located at the Winter and Summer articles for Germany, so why duplicate that here, where we can list the information according to the only truly official sources which is the IOC. Also, I added a more prominent link to those two articles, if you noticed. Please revert, thanks. Jmj713 (talk) 21:27, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

The table above ↑↑ is in full accordance with all corresponding articles, including the IOC-data given in the "All-time Olympic Games medal count" article. As you can see from the infobox, the official source for "Germany at the Olympics" is the Deutscher Olympischer Sportbund (German National Olympic Committee) which does list all the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012, and not only the data for the IOC-code "GER" - as this article is about "Germany at the Olympics" from 1896-present (and not only the IOC-code "GER").--IIIraute (talk) 21:35, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Why are you acting like you own this article? I'm trying to improve this article by adding pertinent information, as I have with many other Countries at the Olympics articles, you can check my edit history. Also, seems like you might want to created German athletes at the Olympics, as I think that's what you're attempting to do. Jmj713 (talk) 21:39, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

The table you want to add is incomplete, misleading and does not contain the data for "Germany at the Olympics" 1896-present - and that's what this article is about - and not the IOC-code "GER".--IIIraute (talk) 21:51, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

How is this incomplete? This clearly marks the entire history of the various German teams in one concise table, which links to other articles for further information.

Medal tables

Further information: Germany at the Summer Olympics and Germany at the Winter Olympics

Medals by Summer Game

Games	Athletes	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total	Rank
1896 Athens	19	6	5	2	13	3
1900 Paris	78	4	2	2	8	7
1904 St. Louis	18	4	4	5	13	2
1908 London	81	3	5	5	13	5
1912 Stockholm	185	5	13	7	25	6
1920 Antwerp	did not participate
1924 Paris
1928 Amsterdam	296	10	7	14	31	2
1932 Los Angeles	143	3	12	5	20	9
1936 Berlin (host nation)	433	33	26	30	89	1
1948 London	did not participate
1952 Helsinki	205	0	7	17	24	28
1956–1964	as part of the  United Team of Germany (EUA)
1968–1988	as  West Germany (FRG) and  East Germany (GDR)
1992 Barcelona	463	33	21	28	82	3
1996 Atlanta	465	20	18	27	65	3
2000 Sydney	422	13	17	26	56	5
2004 Athens	441	13	16	20	49	6
2008 Beijing	463	16	10	15	41	5
2012 London	392	11	19	14	44	6
Total		174	182	217	573	7

Medals by Winter Games

Games	Athletes	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total	Rank
1928 St. Moritz	44	0	0	1	1	8
1932 Lake Placid	20	0	0	2	2	9
1936 Garmisch-Partenkirchen (host nation)	55	3	3	0	6	2
1948 St. Moritz	did not participate
1952 Oslo	53	3	2	2	7	4
1956–1964	as part of the  United Team of Germany (EUA)
1968–1988	as  West Germany (FRG) and  East Germany (GDR)
1992 Albertville	111	10	10	6	26	1
1994 Lillehammer	112	9	7	8	24	3
1998 Nagano	125	12	9	8	29	1
2002 Salt Lake City	157	12	16	8	36	2
2006 Turin	162	11	12	6	29	1
2010 Vancouver	152	10	13	7	30	2
Total		70	72	48	190	4

Jmj713 (talk) 21:57, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Why does your table not show the results for Germany (The Federal Republic of Germany) 1956-1988? because that's what this article is about. --IIIraute (talk) 22:19, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

There is a separate article and a separate table for that. Jmj713 (talk) 22:24, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Look, this article is about Germany, i. e. the "Federal Republic of Germany" at the Olympics, from 1896 to the present - therefore the articles' medal table will have to display the results from 1896 to now - what includes the medals won by the Federal Republic of Germany, 1956-1988 - it's the same country. There is nothing really to discuss. It is totally absurd to exclude the "Federal Repulic of Germany" from a medal table that is supposed to display the medals won by the "Federal Republic of Germany". If you want to create an article "IOC-code "GER" at the Olympics", fine - but please stop edit warring this page with your misleading information. The table, as I have posted above ↑↑ is in full accordance with all corresponding articles, including the IOC-data given in the "All-time Olympic Games medal count" article. It does show the different IOC-codes: GER, FRG, GDR and EUA - and gives the according links. Contrary to your table it doesn't withhold any data. As you can see from the infobox, the official source for "Germany at the Olympics" is the Deutscher Olympischer Sportbund (German National Olympic Committee) which does list all the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012 - because that's what this article is about - and not only the data for the IOC-code "GER" - as this article is about "Germany (the country) at the Olympics" from 1896-present (and not only the IOC-code "GER"). Enough said. --IIIraute (talk) 23:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

You are clearly coming to this discussion with a definite bias. Jmj713 (talk) 00:36, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

...and I thought my table comes from the corresponding Germany at the Summer Olympics and Germany at the Winter Olympics articles? Hence: Germany at the Summer Olympics + Germany at the Winter Olympics = Germany at the Olympics. Doesn't look very biased to me. However, excluding medals won by Germany from 1956-1988, in an article that is supposed to be about "Germany at the Olympics" from 1896-now, seems to be quite biased, doesn't it? That's like excluding the period of "Germany from 1949-1990" from the Germany article, just because there also is an article on what you call West Germany.

I mean, what's next? Do you want to exclude what's colloquially called "West Germany" (Germany 1949-1990) from the Germany at the FIFA World Cup table?? ...because you think they are different countries? --IIIraute (talk) 01:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

It's not what I think that matters, it's what the available official IOC participation data shows. Jmj713 (talk) 02:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it does not. The IOC itself does not publish all-time tables, and publishes unofficial tables only per single Games. The results are attributed to IOC country-codes only - not the countries per se. This article however is about "Germany at the Olympics" from 1896-present, and not any specific IOC country-code. As displayed in the infobox, the official source for "Germany" (which is a country) is its "NOC", the Deutscher Olympischer Sportbund (German National Olympic Committee) recognized in 1895, which does list all the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012. --IIIraute (talk) 02:42, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

You keep repeating the same thing over and ver but that doesn't make it more true. You seem to disregard the fact that between 1956 and 1988 there was no pure Germany at te Olympics. Jmj713 (talk) 10:50, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

This article is about Germany (Deutschland), ie. the German Empire, Weimar Republic, Greater German Reich (Third Reich), Federal Republic of Germany at the Olympics, a sovereign state in western-central Europe, taking part in the Olympic Games, from 1896 to the present day. Please, just "read" the article. You keep referring to Germany (which is a country) as an IOC-code "GER" only, and that is factually incorrect. What you call "Germany" is officially called "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" (Federal Republic of Germany). The "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" is represented through its "NOC", the "Deutscher Olympischer Sportbund" which was founded and regognized in 1895 and has participated in the Olympic Games since 1896. The "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" (Federal Republic of Germany) has had different IOC-codes: "FRG" meaning "Federal Republic of Germany" and "GER", since 1949 the "Federal Republic of Germany".

Ergo: Between 1956 and 1988 there was the same "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" competing at the Olympic Games, as the "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" that is competing now - same NOC, the Deutscher Olympischer Sportbund, founded in 1895 and representing "Germany" since then.--IIIraute (talk) 17:17, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I noticed this issue at WT:OLYMPICS.
This version is clearly an improvement of the article, and such tables are generally expected cf. Norway at the Olympics, Brazil at the Olympics and Zambia at the Olympics. The style currently used on Germany at the Winter Olympics and Germany at the Summer Olympics could work, but I find the table here significantly easier to read. Furthermore, as I set out below, the table inserted by Jmj713 is more relevant to what this article should be about. No information is lost as it has links in the table explaing where you will find the entries for the missing years.
The dispute seems to stem from the "IOC's definition of 'Germany'" not matching "Germany's definition of 'Germany'". As this is an article on "Germany at the Olympics" it is (or should be) an article on "IOC's Germany". While having a section explaining the oddity is sensible, the rest of the article should concern itself exclusively with "IOC's Germany" (country code GER). The other "Germanies" are linked to in the infobox. On the off chance that IOC's treatment of the matter is disputed you can try to search for German medals in the period 1952-1988 here (link leads to a search for medalists from Germany at the 1972 Summer Olympics giving 0 hits).
I'll concede that IOC's method is not the only way this is dealt with (e.g. here, where all medals are listed under Germany until the first time East Germany competed separately), but following the IOC is the most sensible way to ensure we are consistent when dealing with similar cases (e.g. Russia at the Olympics, Russian Empire at the Olympics etc.). 85.167.111.116 (talk) 23:52, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

The "Germany at the Summer & Winter Olympics" table is in full compliance with the IOC data and does not hide any information. Please also note: the IOC data is a "primary" source → WP:RS - the IOC does not publish any official medal tables. The Russian NOC was founded in 1989 and has nothing to do with the NOC of the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union - Germanys' NOC was founded in 1895 and did represent the country ever since. I am not going to repeat the whole discussion. Please read the facts that are given above↑↑. This article is not about the IOC-code "GER" - if anything other than the country per se, it could be based on Germanys' NOC. --IIIraute (talk) 01:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

If this article is not (supposed to be) about the GER Germany, why do we have articles on the FRG, DDR, EUA and SAA Germanies? As far as the tables in the Summer and Winter articles go I conceded that they could work (certainly better than no table), but that I found them to cluttered. (By the way, those articles should be merged to this one.)
The IOC don't publish official medal tables, but they do publish unofficial medal tables. They also publish a database where you can easily find all medallists from a given country at a given year as well as medal tallies for the countries for the Games they take part in. It is a primary source but primary sources can be used when citing "statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge". All medal tables are based on information published by the IOC, and, according to the IOC, GER did not compete and did not take medals from 1956 to 1988. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 11:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

What kind of argument is this - I can ask you why do we have "Germany at the Summer & Winter Olympics" articles? It makes sense to have a separate "GDR" article, because the GDR had its own NOC. However GER and FRG always had the same NOC. For a long time, what is now called FRG, wasn't even called FRG at the time of the Games, but GER - and was changed by the IOC in hindsight. It is true that primary sources can be used - but secondary sources are always to prefer. Policy: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them." --IIIraute (talk) 18:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

In this case we do have to follow the IOC, because it's the body responsible for the Games. Should we renumber all the Olympic Games and give countries extra medals because the IOC no longer recognizes the 1906 Games, but there are secondary sources that say there were the Olympic Games. Jmj713 (talk) 18:15, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

No, we do and will not. Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. --IIIraute (talk) 18:45, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Exactly what I've been trying to explain, maybe not very clearly. Also, these articles are part of a series and should in theory look uniform, which is what I've been trying to do, mainly going in alphabetical order from Afghanistan at the Olympics and on. It's a large project, since some articles use varied table formats, some are missing the Winter Games, and some are missing tables completely (like this one). So I'm coming to this not from any pro and anti nationalistic viewpoint, but purely from the point of view of recording and tabulating every country's participation. With countries like Germany, Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, and so on, it can be a bit tricky, but in the end, having studied the records and the history of the IOC codes, it makes sense, from a geopolitical standpoint. Jmj713 (talk) 13:33, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

That's exactly why the neutrality of this article is disputed: "GER did not compete and did not take medals from 1956 to 1988." So are you telling me that Germany did not compete from 1956 to 1988?? What is "GER"? GER is the Federal Republic of Germany. The Federal Republic of Germany did compete between 1956 and 1988 - and it is the very same Federal Republic of Germany that does compete since 1988. The IOC does not have the authority to refute international law and rewrite history. And cccording to international law we are talking about the same country, that has the same NOC since 1895. --IIIraute (talk) 19:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

References

IOC

I have noticed that many Olympic articles that are treated like the IOC's "bitch" (i.e. the IOC owns them) are in strict violation with WP:RS and do not use independent or third-party sources:

"Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors ... Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them."

Why don't we just "copy & paste" all IOC material right into the WP - would save a lot of work. --IIIraute (talk) 02:12, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

This is not the place for this discussion. Feel free to challenge the current paradigm at WT:OLYMPICS or at a noticeboard. As I pointed out above other sources don't always follow the IOC. Why should we? I could write a lot about this, but it essentially boils down to the following and similar examples. If we claim that Norway competed at the 1904 Summer Olympics and won two gold medals we are introducing an incorrect statement into the article, because when you actually check the official results the two golds are listed as American. Similarly if we arbitrarily choose one of the ways combining German medals, our claims are strictly speaking incorrect. You may not like this, but the IOC actually has the power to define what is the "correct" or "official" way of seeing things related to the Olympics. In the same way FIFA can consider West Germany and Germany the same entity in the context of international football, and we follow them. It would be incorrect to claim that they have never won the World Cup, as they are clearly allowed to use three stars above their logo signifying their victories. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 12:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Do you know why FIFA does consider West Germany and Germany the same country? Because what you colloquially call "West Germany", did never exist. There is a sovereign country, called Federal Republic of Germany, before 1990, colloquially called West Germany - after 1990, colloquially called Germany. P.S. What you call "Germany" did win the World Cup in 1990. --IIIraute (talk) 19:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

How can you seriously say that when you like to the West Germany article and your table above has West Germany. You're just being willfully obtuse and obstructive. Jmj713 (talk) 19:44, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

No idea what you are saying - take some history lessons. --IIIraute (talk) 20:00, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

(ec)I know that the "Federal Republic of Germany" generally is considered the same entity before and after reunification. It is completely irrelevant in the context of the Olympic Games. By the way, while reunification was in 1990, it was after "West Germany" had won the 1990 FIFA World Cup Final. FIFA chooses to consider West Germany's record part of Germany's. The IOC chooses not to. Wikipedia report the facts by explaining the special circumstances and reporting the official data. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 19:53, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

For the article, it doesn't matter what the IOC chooses to do. The IOC is a non-independent primary source. Most interestingly, the IOC doesn't make "any" statements about countries per se, but only lists unofficial tables per IOC-code. The IOC never claimed that FRG and GER are not the same country - only different codes have been used in hidsight to display some data. --IIIraute (talk) 20:00, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Essentially I agree; except that I think it matters. In the database search I linked to earlier the Germany-related options are "Germany", "Federal Republic of Germany (1950-1990, GER since)", "German Democratic Republic (1955-1990" and "Unified Team of Germany (1956, 1960, 1964)". You will also notice that there is no article on the United Kingdom at the Olympics. That is because the IOC refers to them as "Great Britain". 85.167.111.116 (talk) 20:36, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and the IOC refers to the Federal Republic of Germany as "Germany". My point. Nobody is arguing the article should be called "Federal Republic of Germany at the Olympics" - however, it doesn't change the fact that Germany is the "Federal Republic of Germany", and vice versa. --IIIraute (talk) 21:02, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

But nothing you say changes the fact that the IOC separates the pre-1990 Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) from the post-1990 Federal Republic of Germany (GER). Petition the IOC (contact a German IOC member or your National Olympic Committee), not Wikipedia; Wikipedia doesn't correct the errors of others, it reports the facts. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 21:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and the DOSB, the German National Olympic Committee, the official source (that is also given in the infobox and even cited by the IOC as official source[2] - while the IOC itself only publishes unofficial data), does list all the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012, and not only for the IOC-code "GER". And then, there are other independent, third-party WP:RS that will also be taken into account. Maybe you should contact the Wikipedia and get the WP policies changed, so you can establish your IOC dictatorship encyclopedia. Until then, you will have to tolerate other WP:RS. IOC primary source data does certainly not have preference over other reliable WP:RS. Olympic Games related articles are to be treated just like any other WP article → Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). --IIIraute (talk) 21:55, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Let's look at the link you provided (the same as one I provided in the previous section). On the right you'll find the heading "Olympic Medals". Click this and scroll down to the 1952-1992 gap. This is what you want to change; contact the IOC. I responded to you on the other talk page as well, but I consider myself done with these comments. While "IOC dictatorship encyclopedia" is hilarious, the comparison to North Korea will become tiresome. You may have a case for deleting the All-time Olympic Games medal table as synthesis (you have no case for exclusively changing Germany's entries), but personally I would oppose. For this article I think this version is the superior version, based on aesthetics, inclusion of relevant content and links, reader-friendlyness and consistency with other articles of its kind. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 22:53, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The link provided gives the DOSB, the German National Olympic Committee, as official source - while the IOC itself only publishes unofficial data. The DOSB does list all the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012, and not only for the IOC-code "GER". Furthermore, there are other independent, third-party WP:RS that will also be taken into account. And yes, I do have a case for changing the article "All-time Olympic Games medal table", as there are lots of independent third-party WP:RS published on this subject. Best thing about it: No analysis of primary-source material, or synthetic claims necessary. I can't really see why these sources should be "banned" from the article - especially since it is in strict violation with several WP policies. --IIIraute (talk) 23:22, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Various German flags

An anonymous editor (85.76.50.30, 85.76.174.37, 85.76.113.152, 85.76.116.30, 85.76.171.209) has been continuously introducing the same edits, adding a multitude of flags Germany has used throughout its Olympic history. I understand the need for this historic information, but in my estimation, this needlessly encumbers the tables, especially since Germany's Olympic participation is not a simple matter in and of itself. Please discuss and do not revert back as per WP:BRD. Thanks. Jmj713 (talk) 14:51, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Different flags, look at e.g. Germany at the 1896 Summer Olympics, Germany at the 1912 Summer Olympics and Germany at the 1936 Winter Olympics. --85.76.110.51 (talk) 16:57, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm well aware of the flags. This article is not about flags though. Jmj713 (talk) 17:18, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Nobody owns the articles, but everybody is allowed to do improvements. --85.76.178.95 (talk) 23:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

And WP:CONSENSUS is that your edits are not "improvements". — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:53, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Germany at the Olympics

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Germany at the Olympics's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "ref1":

• From All-time Olympic Games medal table: Counting the eleven Games where East Germany and West Germany competed as two separate teams.
• From All-time Olympic Games medal table: Counting one more Summer Olympic Games where East Germany in 1980 and West Germany in 1984 competed.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:19, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

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For the total of German medals / participation - you can’t simply black out the period with a Unified Team or when two countries competed. This makes absolutely no sense - However, I can see that it is difficult to combine East Germany and West Germany during the period when they both competed separately. Given that the legal state (with its international agreements) which survived Unification was West Germany (and this includes its committee membership at the IOC) then it is best to have Germany = Germany since 1992+West Germany + Unified Teams + Weimar Republic (incl Nazi Germany) + pre WWI German Empire. while East Germany is a separate entry as they competed separately. How do we change it ? BoNiLi (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Germany Medal Table

For the total of German medals / participation - you can’t simply black out the period with a Unified Team or when two countries competed. This makes absolutely no sense - However, I can see that it is difficult to combine East Germany and West Germany during the period when they both competed separately. Given that the legal state (with its international agreements) which survived Unification was West Germany (and this includes its committee membership at the IOC) then it is best to have Germany = Germany since 1992+West Germany + Unified Teams + Weimar Republic (incl Nazi Germany) + pre WWI German Empire. while East Germany is a separate entry as they competed separately. How do we change it ? BoNiLi (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Germany Profile - olympics.com

The IOC itself considers the records of the teams (NOC) from West Germany (FRG) and East Germany (GDR) in the period 1968–1988 to be separate teams and therefore not part of the records of team Germany (GER). Miria~01 (talk) 17:56, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the question here is *why* Wikipedia uses the record-keeping codes created by the IOC to separate what most people would consider “Germany at the Olympics” into multiple separate parts/articles. Having the separate codes makes sense for the IOC tracking of official results and such, but most people would expect all of the relevant country codes/committees to be included in an article about “Germany”. Until someone better articulates this reasoning, the issue is going to keep cropping up. Elriana (talk) 08:02, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I think there is a misunderstanding here:

West Germany, for example, started under the code ALE (1968) and GER (1972–1976).

So it has nothing to do with the code, but Germany (1896-1964, 1992-), West Germany (1968-1988) and East Germany (1968-1988) are viewed as three separate teams by the IOC, therefore separate wiki-articles for the teams.

Also note that the IOC and Olympedia include the records of the United Team of Germany (EUA) from 1956-1964 as the records of Germany (GER). Only here, after a discussion with a broad consensus in WT:OLY, United Team of Germany (EUA) could be merged to Germany (GER). Miria~01 (talk) 10:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Even if a lot has already been written about this: it is definitely wrong not to attribute the medals won by German athletes to Germany as a whole. To be honest, for me as a German it is also unfair and insulting that my compatriots are practically not recognised as Germans through this kind of counting and that the division of my country is virtually continued.

I would therefore argue in favour of doing it the way it is done in the German version of this page: the German teams should be listed separately for the individual Olympic Games, but the medals must be added together in the overall total.

And another technical question: would this change then automatically be transferred to the other Wikipedia pages on this topic (for example "Summer Olympics") or would a separate discussion have to be opened there? 2003:F4:3F4C:1B00:28D2:AE92:75D:3F03 (talk) 17:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I understand not counting East German athletes for the 1968-1988 Olympics. If there would be, say, a football final West Germany-East Germany in one of these Olympics, this would result both the gold and silver medal being counted for Germany.

However, I do not understand why the unified team and the West German team are not counted. In 1956-1964, there was only one German team – why would it not be representing Germany?

Also, the German reunification did not result in a new country, it was West Germany (= the FRG) annexing the former East Germany territory. The country did not change. Thus, I think there is no reason whatsoever not to count the West German medals. De wafelenbak (talk) 21:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Political

The "Unification Treaty" entered into force on 3 October 1990, dissolving the German Democratic Republic (GDR; or East Germany) and integrating its recently re-established constituent federated states into the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG; or West Germany) to form present-day Germany. In addition, The Federal Republic of Germany is not the legal successor of the German Reich, but as a state it is identical with the state German Reich. The Federal Constitutional Court has consistently ruled that the German Reich, as a subject of international law, has not ceased to exist and that the Federal Republic of Germany is not its legal successor, but is identical with it as a subject of international law.[3]

IOC

However, as explained in my previous post, the IOC does not pose the political question of legal succession of states or whether they are historical legal entities.The IOC itself considers the records of the teams (NOC) from West Germany (FRG) and East Germany (GDR) in the period 1968–1988 to be separate teams and therefore not part of the records of team Germany (GER).[4] Miria~01 (talk) 22:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

This discussion was had years ago. The table as is is correct. There is no need to have the same debate again. And to specifically address "I think the question here is *why* Wikipedia uses the record-keeping codes created by the IOC to separate what most people would consider “Germany at the Olympics” into multiple separate parts/articles." This article is exactly Germany at the Olympics. When they participated as the EUA, FRG, and GDR, they were not just Germany. Those were different entities. And "I do not understand why the unified team and the West German team are not counted." Same reason Soviet Union and the Unified Team are not combined. They're not the same entities. Jmj713 (talk) 22:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)