Talk:Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Technology Section

I think the whole technology section could be cleaned up if somebody just got rid of all the stuff about it being "realistic" and "convincing." It reads like some fan boy wanted to prove that GITS is possible or something. I think most people can agree that we are not going to have anything close to the level of technology by 2030. Also, I've never picked up a reference to current companies or anything like that. The section should be completely rewritten to talk about the technology as portrayed in the series, and make no reference to how it relates to the present day, because the show itself doesn't seem to try too hard to do that. Bojac6 (talk) 03:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Zeke-actualy a rats brain cells wear merged with a simple machine where it was placed in an area with four walls the machine only had wheels an laser sensor but the rat brain cells eventualy learned to not run in to walls i think this was 2007 or 2008 so who knows what could happen twenty years from now. but im not saying it would be like that im just saying if we choose to go in that direction we could we might need a little more than twenty yeas but you know what i mean-sorry to not be profesional with my writing i just thout it was important to say. look it up im shure its on wik! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.125.141.24 (talk) 11:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Writing

Shouldn't the writing section contain information about the actual writing? i.e. which writers wrote it, etc, instead of a brief list of a few references? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.78.10 (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Lost Music

I went through the OSTs for Stand Alone Complex and was very disappointed to find that a lot of the songs in the actual series wasn't on any of the soundtracks. Some music was completely rearranged, and I swear that some music was never in the actual television show. What disappointed me was that a lot of the beautiful orchestrations, the string music and everything, was missing in action. I went through every album but the Solid State Society and I've gone through every song, there are defiantly songs from the show not in the soundtracks. ARBlackwood 19:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Started stub

Written a starting stub. Not the most brilliant writing I've ever done. I hope people will edit and improve on the page soon.

Added the opening text from the series. This is basically just fair use 80.126.238.189 23:17, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Text removed from article. (Am I becoming a deletionist? ) :

The series receives its subtitle from the structure of each episode. Each episode can be viewed independently of each other. It also alludes to the independence this series has in comparison to both the movie and manga.

This is not entirely true. SPOILERS: A Stand alone complex[1] appears to be a kind of psychological complex which (at least) the laughing man claims to suffer from.

[1] Probably somewhat mistranslated (engrish). I wonder if there's a real word for this in english? (Probably something to do with extreme/pathological lonelyness.) Kim Bruning 21:18, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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this is the writer of the removed text. I disagree on the removal of the text as the grounds of removal are mistaken. feel free to disagree, and I'd be happy to hear a dissent. however, my thoughts, supported by evidence is as follows:

The Stand alone complex is not a mistranslation, as it is a description of a social emergent behavior. There is no established word for this, as its a hypothetical social phenomena. As described in the story, the Laughing Man himself is nothing but an emergent social construct. One created through the mass social parallelization of the human psyche through the ubiquitous cyberbrain network. There is no 'Real' Laughing man. This effect of these people with no apparent motive, nor relation, acting in an organized fashion is called the stand alone complex. Thus, it is not a psychological nor pathological syndrome which can be ascribed any single character.

From the making of: Kenji Kamiyama (The series Producer and writer) did lightly touch upon the meaning of the Stand alone complex. The episodes CAN be watched independently of each other, and the series itself stands out from the movies, which follow a different series of events and is as such a parallel universe. Thus I felt justified in making that addition. It also has critical elements which set it independent of the manga tellings of the story. Upon inspection. Stand Alone complex is a closer telling to the Manga than the films directed by Oshii, by virtue of signature elements that tie it to the greater Shirow Masamune Universe timeline, and other works that occupy that same time line.

Dai-nippon giken or later known to be Poseidon Industries is a larger element in the story Appleseed, which takes a hundred years or so in the future. Regardless, the critical element, which is the puppetmaster story arc is purposefully omitted, which again cements the position of SAC as a parallel and overall, Stand Alone Story. Akiakane 11:02, 2004 Jun 11 (UTC)

I re-edited the text this conversation is about. To say that the title 'Stand Alone Complex' refers to anything other than the actual mental complex proposed within the series as anything other than an inclusion is silly. The entire extended series plot is about the 'Stand Alone Complex' and that intentions of Laughing Man. I did leave in your thoughts about it (or whoever's they were) as a sort of allusion the title makes, however, and feel this suits the use and intentions of the title equally well. Also: If you've seen the second season (not available in English yet) you'll note that (SPOILER) it ends -exactly- where the manga begins, down to the cherry blossom scene and everything. Telesque

While reading some on recursion, I stumbled on Douglas_Hofstadter. Reading one of his concepts, it seems he about "invented" the stand alone complex (quote from the actual page): "Hofstadter invented the concept of Reviews of This Book, a book containing nothing but cross-referenced reviews of itself." As a quote, it made sense to me, and some closer explaination on the page maps it almost 1-on-1 to the impression I got of a SAC Boudewijn 2005 Aug 9

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Just as I did on the entry for Ghost in the Shell, I fixed a minor spelling error. --Ghost Freeman

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I'm considering splitting the technology section into their own individual pages, as the writing is becoming large and unwieldy to be inline, and the references from the other series could share them. Ghost in the Shell (movie), the Second Gig among others would benefit from it being placed on its own reference.

At the least, a clear subdivision of the Technology section into each topic may be beneficial, but I'm adverse to making that kind of change without some feedback. Akiakane 00:58, 2004 Aug 22 (UTC)

It could be worthwhile just to briefly note the different technologies and link to respective (and probably existing) articles, indeed. -- towo 08:47, 2004 Aug 22 (UTC)

I agree. It's becomes somewhat of a distraction when reading the article and tyring not to edit the part of the exclusivity of Section 9's use of thermo optic camoflauge, knowing that evidence of it's possession by other military and intelligence organizations and individuals shown in the movie and the manga contradicts that. --YoungFreud 21:59, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To add a slightly more broad viewpoint, I think the intent of the term Stand Alone Complexis to be somewhat of a simulacrum. It's meaning is supposed to be unclear and layered becoming a simulation of itself. My intuitive feeling when I first watched GITS was that it had a purely psychological meaning. As I watched seasons one and two, I became aware of SAC's computer science definition as a complex of computers or data spheres disconnected from a local, regional or global network. This attaches quite naturally to the political meaning of a SAC in that the comp sci definition analogizes the political. A political SAC is a non-transparent agency that is removed from the social matrix whose lives the agency's decisions often effect. This action from a governmental or authoritarian entity leads to a form of SAC you've already touched upon. This definition involves non-related, seperated people acting individually yet forming a collective intent to react to the work of a political SAC. The fruition of a sociological SAC leads to the manifestation of the "movement's" principle's within the psyche of those forming the Complex leading to increased isolation and greater responsibility for possessing knowledge of a political SAC and its actions. Exposition of the terms simulacra and simulation can be found by reading Jean Baudrillard. --User:dhankinson 23:26, 27 Jan 2006(UTC)

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Changed the genre description to postcyberpunk as it's more appropriate. Postcyberpunk even references Ghost in the Shell. Norfenstein 21:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Mamoru Oshii in 2nd Gig?

I'm wondering about the origin of that statement.

I've been unable to find anything that would support that statement. What I've been able to find is that he has not been involved in TV-anime since the early 90s. Also the entry for Mamoru Oshii is also against this.

If indeed he was involved why would he be left out from the credits? Since neither I.G Productions' homesite nor the actual series credits credit Mamoru Oshii's involvement in the making of the series in anyway.

I'd appreciate if someone would post the source.

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The standalone/complex distinctions between filler backstory and progressive episodes is appreciated. Cúchulainn

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From an interview with series director Kenji Kamiyama "For the second series, when I discussed the theme with Oshii-san ". So Oshii must have had some input into the series. http://www.productionig.com/project.php?id=64&section=1&page=3

Timeline Issues

The article says that this series happens before the movie in chronology, but I believe it to be a separate timeline entirely from the movies or the comics.

While it obviously takes many of it's plot lines for the stand alone episodes, the way they treat Togesua indicates that it is in a separate timeline. In the first movie, the members of Section 9 treat him as a rookie, as they do at the beginning to the series. But by the end of the first season of the show, they way the other members of the team treat him has changed, and he is no longer considered a rookie. -Whoever

Spoiler Warning: Stand Alonce Complex takes place in 2030. The end of the second season leaves us at the exact point of the beginning of the Manga (and actually in one of the exact scenes). This means that the SAC timeline is before, and in the same universe as the manga. Sure, you've gotta bend a little when you're creating such diverse work around pre-existing things. In line with the Manga, then, SAC would be before the anime. -Telesque

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

I know that each episode summary should be very brief, but would anybody object if I mention that episode 11 had some referances to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Flew_Over_the_Cuckoo%27s_Nest)?

I've created a "Trivia" section so that this sort of information can be entered. EreinionFile:RAHSymbol.JPG 23:54, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Episode listing...?

Normally I'm all for more detail in Wikipedia articles, but the first season episode listing is kind of making me wonder. I haven't seen anything like it in other pages (I'm thinking Hagaren here, since that's another page I'm keeping an eye on - but then again, they've got a manga on the same page, so I don't know). Too much detail? Perhaps a split is in order? Maybe we could put in some things about philosophy, and/or have a comparison to the movies and manga? Kawa 18:48, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I was wondering if we should split up the episode listing the way other major TV shows do (like Buffy, Stargate SG-1, Star Trek, etc) and make a Catagory for GitS:SAC and 2nd Gig. This would give us that cool sidebar, more room to give details about each episode, and a place to talk about how each episode adds to the understanding of the whole. I have never done such a major edit and wanted to ask here first. Seer 03:56, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm against that. Unless we start putting way more details in about episodes, then there is no need to split up the article. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 04:09, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone wants more detailed episode synopsis?

Copyvio in "Trivia" section

Compare the bottom of this page with the top of the Trivia section ("The "Laughing Man" plot that runs through the series . . ."). Pretty much a verbatim copy. I'm leaving this unflagged on the off chance that Production I.G. gave permission, or even took their text from this page, but I'm guessing it's a simple copyvio. — Wisq 19:10, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I feel that this piece of trivia really needs to be spun off into a seperate article and a link pointing to there. I did a quick Google search and there's still quite a bit of talk about it in Japan, with some commentators referencing it as the turning point in Japanese crime.--YoungFreud 07:46, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

K, I got off my lazy butt and decided to go ahead and write the Glico Morinaga case article. It's incomplete, but it has references for now. I will go ahead and remove the suspect copyvio anyway, since it gives a necessary trim to the article.--YoungFreud 08:58, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the episode 26 addition in which someone carved "Fuck you" on a rail, I have found the screen shot for it, which can be found [here]. Eluchil 08:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Stand Alone Complex

Entering "Stand Alone Complex" redirects to this in wikipedia. Shouldn't there be an article covering the phenomenon in particular?

What phenomenon would that be? Ereinion 20:49, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

The psychological phenomenon. The "Stand Alone Complex". See the top of the discussion page or the series itself for an explanation

Isn't just another name for meme? I have not heard the name "Stand Alone Complex" ouside of the series, but all indications from the series is that it's a type of meme. --YoungFreud 19:20, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

If you're reffering to it's existence in the plot then no. In the last episode of season one Kusanagi and the Laughing Man discuss the manifestation and appearance of the complex in an individual. Compared to our real world then maybe. I talked to a friend of mine who is a psychologist and he said it could reffer to a number of complexes that are often misinterpreted as paranoia or anarchistic tendencies but he can't pinpoint it. Because neither of us has english as the mother language we can't link them to english terminology so that's why I'm asking here if it actually reffers to something real. Maybe the best bet would be to get a psychologist who knows both english and japanese to clarify.

episode 10

Does anyone know if there's a connection between Jungle Cruise (ep 10) and The Silence of the Lambs? Cause the t-shirts from women thing seems like a real big coincidence... 128.42.167.200 03:03, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to remember the recent movie where there's also a killer who records the sensory input of himself and transmits it to the victims, but I can't. Mikkel 23:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Just found out, it's Strange Days (film). Mikkel 22:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Also City of Lost Children

I think you guys are jumping the gun with the connections. In episode 10, "Jungle Cruise," the villain, Marco, cuts the skin of victims in the pattern of a t-shirt. In "Silence of the Lambs" Buffalo Bill skins victims to he can wear their skin like some sort of a woman suit. Aside from the actual skinning, there aren't any parallels. Buffalo Bill skinned his victims because he wanted to be a female, Marco guy skinned his victims because he went AWOL. I don't know about Strange Days (film) since I've never seen it, and I know for a fact that it's definatly not connected to City of the Lost Children, since that was about kidnapping children to harvest their dreams, which isn't even close to "Jungle Cruise."

The only parallel I see is with JD Salinger's story A Perfect Day for Bananafish, note the full title is "A Perfect Day for Jungle Cruise." I'm fairly sure of this connection since the entire series has references to JD Salinger [Laughing Man, the "fuck you" etched into the wall, Holden Caulfield's catcher's mit, et cetera]. In the Bananafish story, a person leads a fairly simple life and kills himself at the end, presumably because of the horrors he's experienced during the war, he doesn't want to go on living. That's basically Marco in a nutshell, he's done these horrible skinnings in the war and wants Section 9 to kill him at the end. ARBlackwood 19:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Soundtrack: Tachikoma album?

I noticed there's three soundtracks listed, Vol. 1-3 (and I actually haven't even heard of Vol. 3 until now), but the Tachikoma album isn't listed. I was wondering if there's a reason? Also, album vol. 2 as listed was used in 2nd Gig, so maybe that should be on the other page? Anyway, here's an Amazon link for the Tachikoma album "Be Human". And by the way, tracks from it are used in 2nd Gig. --Cyde Weys 14:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

One more thing - track 1 on OST 1, "Run Rabbit Junk", says "with Hyde". Is that Hyde from L'arc en Ciel? Come to think of it, that song did kind of sound like L'arc en Ciel ... --Cyde Weys 14:48, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Soundtrack: Lithium Flower

As Lithium Flower redirects to GitS:SAC, I'll be removing the hyperlink.24.77.135.3 04:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Fuchikoma vs Uchikoma

The "Uchikoma is a hybrid of Fuchikoma and Tachikoma" conclusion seems to be based mostly on people's personal guesses. Most likely Uchikoma is nothing but a mistranslation in some versions of the series. Facts support the suits appearing at the end of the 2nd GiG being *Fuchikomas*. The ending scene is the manga's opening scene, and in the manga they're Fuchikomas. The small differences in the appearance seem to be the only thing that supports the hybrid theory. I believe WP should say they're Fuchikomas unless someone can show a comment from someone who counts as an authority that suggests otherwise. The "hybrid theory" also appears in Fuchikoma entry. Pasi 21:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC) (update: A copyright problem with the Fuchikomas has also been suggested)

What "Facts"? For one thing, it's clearly audible as "Uchikoma". For another, it's not a straight copy of the Manga's opening scene any more than episode 1 of 2nd Gig is a straight copy of the opening scene of the 1995 film. It's simply meant to evoke it, as evidenced by the different dialogue, difference in the layout of the shrine and positioning of the characters, different clothing, the Uchikomas are bright green whereas Fuchikomas are variously khaki or red...The fact that the characters wear the 1995-type white armour, the setting which evokes the manga, and the hybrid design of the Uchikoma come together to draw all strands of GitS into one, as a sort of send off. Uchikomas are not Fuchikomas. Also, they're in 2nd Gig only, so really this has no place in this article.YourMessageHere 03:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Which version are you hearing this in? Because if it's the japanese version, I'm sure you're aware of how subtle the "f" sound in "fu" is.

GITS mess

Wait, what the hell is all this? I don't know who did what, but this is a freaking mess. Look at that nav template, holy crap man. And why are things being listed as 1st and 3rd Gig, when only "2nd Gig" was used as a name? It doesn't matter what one article was originally for or what, this whole mess needs to be restructured and re-evaluated. For starters, no articles with fan-names like 1st and 3rd Gig. Second, original SAC and 2nd Gig should be merged back to here, split sections off as needed, but not like this This... is just so sloppy.... Third, that nav template... is too big.....

Don't anyone go freaking out just yet. No one is going to be doing something that will look stupid, in any case. Get some ideas for article structure and so on. This is a damn good anime and it deserves better than this. -- Ned Scott 08:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Merge with Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (1st GiG)

• No merge. The two pages were originally one under Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, but that page provided information on both the series itself and the first season of that series. 2nd GiG has always had its own page, so I split the article, creating a page for "1st GiG." If the two articles are to be merged again, then 2nd GiG might as well also be merged into the same page; but this will make the article way too big.

• No merge. As stated above. If any merging should be done it just should be with Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (1st GiG) and this article. I know what people mean when they say 1st GiG, but that's not what it's officially called, is it? --Miss Ethereal 14:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• No Merge. The article would be way too long if it was merged.

• No Merge. There is no such thing as "1st GiG", this is something people are wrongly calling the first Season. 2nd GiG was ment to seperate it from the first season. They are named by the creators different things because they are both stand alone. If it was mearly a contiueation of the first season, one would wonder if they would have added the '2nd GiG' title to differentiate them at all. OwlBoy 18:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support. I don't remember putting my vote here... I thought it was on a different article. Anyways, if the official title is not 1st GiG and is just "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" then it should be on Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. We shouldn't be supporting unofficial names for the series, it's confusing to say the least. --Miss Ethereal 19:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it just be a case of renaming 1st Gig to this article name, and then also renaming this article to GITS:SAC continuity or universe or somesuch? 70.51.8.73 05:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

No. What you are looking for is a GITS Anime TV series Universe article, and this is NOT the place to do that. The issue that I'm trying to point out is that the official name of the first season of GITS is not being used on wikipedia, rather some fan-related name is being used. With the information available right now on the current GITS articles that I've seen (I haven't seen/read all of them) on wikipedia, a stand-along article on the GITS universe is not warranted. Rather, like most anime related articles, information pertaining to the universe should be integrated into the article it is talking about to make it more concise. Should you think that the GITS TV series universe deserves it's own article, ideas should be brain stormed to encompass what it would entail. Otherwise, the Ghost in the Shell (disambiguation) page should suffice. --Miss Ethereal 17:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support As above. --Kunzite 04:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose These are two different shows that warrent two seperate articles, not one massive article that would only serve to confuse people. TomStar81 01:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Uh, wait, I think you misunderstand, there's three articles and two shows. SAC and "SAC (1st gig)" are not two different shows, they are the same show. Then there is SAC 2nd gig, a sequel/second season. -- Ned Scott 06:15, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose GitS:SAC continuity should have a separate continuity article. 70.51.8.73 04:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No merge.

Proposed merge - Tachikoma Days -to- here

Ned Scott proposed to merge Tachikoma Days article into this one.

NOTE: Ned Scott has withdrawn his proposal for merging, per the comments in the comment section below. He is instead proposing that it be merged to Tachikoma. 70.51.8.73 04:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose - Tachikoma Days is a separate series, and it's part of the first season and 2nd Gig. 132.205.93.88

Uh, what? It's a DVD extra, not a series. And it's rather trivial... -- Ned Scott 04:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support - Tachikoma Days is not noteworthy enough to merit a separate article. --Mistamagic28 ^{(discuss me)} 23:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support As above. --Kunzite 04:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no merge.

Proposed merge: from 2nd GIG

Ned Scott proposes to merge Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. 2nd GIG into this page.

NOTE: Ned Scott has withdrawn his proposal for merging, per the comments in the comment section below. 70.51.8.73 04:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose different titles, and there was supposed to be a different licensing agreement. 132.205.93.88 23:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Different titles, same TOPIC. Same characters, same setting, a continuation of the story. It is very common for anime articles on Wikipedia to merge information when it's redundant to split the information. It makes it harder for the reader to find information and it doesn't hurt anything to have them under one article title. -- Ned Scott 04:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, this is not a vote... this is a discussion... things like straw polls should really only be used when discussion becomes unclear or if an agreement can't be easily reached. -- Ned Scott 05:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose per my earlier comments (see above section). --Mistamagic28 ^{(discuss me)} 23:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support As above. Totally redundant to have all of these articles spread over this many pages for the same series. --Kunzite 04:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose as per my above comment TomStar81 01:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

GITS mess comments

I'd like to stress that there really shouldn't be a straw poll going on for this. Some anon seems to have taken offense to my suggestions and hastily threw one together. There also seems to be some confusion as to what is being suggested. I made the mistake of posting this message on two talk pages, so really this whole discussion should be going on here at Talk:Ghost in the Shell#GITS mess. Sorry for the confusion. -- Ned Scott 20:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to say These pages should be merged into one nice, well build article on the topic. Same thing with the GITS characters. --Kunzite 04:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: I've added the template:mergefrom onto this article page, to complement the template:mergeto that Ned Scott has used. 132.205.95.25 20:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Stand Alone Complex has its own article... seems like it should be merged with something (probably this article page). There is as yet no mergeto banner, since I'm not sure what the target should be. 132.205.95.25 20:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

You know, you guys can keep voting but it won't mean anything. No one has yet to propose how the merged articles will even look. I meant the merge proposal to help get ideas flowing, not to "make a stand". 2nd Gig might have enough for it's own article, it might not, or maybe some parts of that article should go to this article, and some parts from this to that, etc. See what I'm getting at? -- Ned Scott 06:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Ned Scott seems to be getting flustered with the lack of discussion and all the straw votes going on so I'll just do a little commenting. I only took a brief glance at the articles, so I can't say for certain what needs to be done, but here it goes... :P --Miss Ethereal 14:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

IMO, 1st GiG should be merged with this article. There isn't enough on the two to have separate articles and 1st GiG seems to be a copy and paste job of this article. So merging the two shouldn't be that big of an issue. This article also seems to need some help, as it consists largely of media listings. --Miss Ethereal 14:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Tachikoma Days was only on the first season. If that's the case, then it should also probably be merged with this article... have it's own little section. The Tachikoma Days article is too small and would fit better on this article (if it were merged with the first season). --Miss Ethereal 14:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

That would be incorrect. There are Tachikoma Days with 2nd Gig as well. 132.205.64.80 23:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Huh, maybe I should try reading the article. Well, I was only aware of the this being on the first season, but since it's on the second season, it could probably stand to have it's own article. It definitely needs an infobox, and a more in-depth analysis of the philosophical discussions that are done by the Tachikomas. It may also be relevant to have an analysis of their artificial intelligence and their growth through these discussions... but then again I've only seen a few of the first season's Tackikoma Days. --Miss Ethereal 15:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe merge Tachikoma Days with Tachikoma? -- Ned Scott 20:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

2nd GiG, however, I believe should stay where it is. The story line is quite different, though it takes place in the same universe, and I don't even remember them making any references to the Laughing man and maybe one reference to when Section 9 was... (well I won't say for those of you who haven't seen it)... but it's been a while since I last seen it, so I may be wrong.

--Miss Ethereal 14:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Having just rewatched 2nd GiG I can confirm that it has multiple references to the Laughing Man. These references come up in the form of, "I wonder if the Individual Eleven is a stand alone complex, like the Laughing Man case." --Cyde↔Weys 18:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not that I'm getting frustrated with the straw poll, rather, the straw poll seems to narrow the ideas out on the table. Well, I guess actually then I am frustrated with the straw poll... but.. you get what I mean. 2nd GiG probably has enough info for it's own article, but I do think we should still look it over to see if we can make it flow better with the other articles. -- Ned Scott 06:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I get what you mean. :P Well... I guess I can say something about the flow. The majority of the history that's on the 2nd GIG article should be moved to this page, as it is relevant to both articles but since this one preceeds 2nd GIG, it can encompass both articles better. The lead in needs a little more work, but what lead in doesn't (rhetorically speaking)? Season two has it's own major plot line, that isn't described at all from what I can see (once again, I only did a brief look). The "Main Characters" section needs to renamed to say the least (not all those characters are main characters) and a List of Characters of Ghost in the Shell or something like that may be warranted. Having this list will reduce redundancy across the GITS articles, a brief (1-3 sentences) description of the principle characters may be left on the article to describe their role in that particle article. Minor characters should go on the list. The episode list fairly bare-bones and provides no real information on the episode. IMO, most of the Trivia should probably be scrapped as none of it is sourced (and words like "obviously" are not always obvious). Production information just needs to organized and pruned (though the information is relevant to the article, and they did a fabulous job and should get their spot-light, I don't think many people care who did Post Production, etc.). The Distribution section can probably be scrapped entirely as this info should for the most part be contained within the infobox. There must be some sort of critical (official) analysis for this anime series, especially if we consider the plot of this season. I also saw a broken image... that's about all I can see off hand. --Miss Ethereal 15:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, I'll take down the merge notice for 2nd GiG. -- Ned Scott 20:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Talk page reverts by Ned Scott

I object to Ned Scott reverting my notices about the merge that I made on the talk pages for 1st GiG, 2nd GiG, and Tachikoma Days. It is especially bad on the 1st gig page where there is already a straw poll, and NO LINK there to here. Furthermore, any person wanting to know about the debate would have to trawl through the article page history to even find out about a merge request, when they could just read the talk page instead. I did not vandalize the talk pages, so I do not see why there should ever have been a revert.

I also think the straw polls on this page should be in their own sections so that they appear in the TOC, but Ned Scott disagrees and rewrote them without sections, so that a person directed here by the merge template would have to read the entire talk page to figure out where the straw polls is!

132.205.45.148 00:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Dude, you don't get it. For one, a straw poll at this point is extremely inappropriate. Two, if we should have one then it should happen on Talk:Ghost in the Shell and not here, simply for the sake of sanity and because that's where the merge template points to. A person should read the talk page instead of just charging in and "voting". That's called a discussion. Read m:Polls are evil. Polls should NOT be the first step in discussion. In no way am I trying to exclude anyone, rather, my actions are intended to centralize the discussion of the GITS mess, so more editors can be involved. -- Ned Scott 08:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

But when you did that, you removed the sections, which means that you've made it harder for interested persons to voice their concerns. "GITS mess" is hardly descriptive, and discussions about the merger would be in a specific location, which might have nothing to do with other discussions. As the discussion is on the merger and not other issues, it should have a section that people can find in the TOC.

The merge templates point to this page (or the article page at any rate), and not at Ghost in the Shell, unless you made an error on what you want to merge to. template:mergeto points to the target of the merger (this article page) and the discuss link point to its talk page (this page itself).

At any rate, there was already a straw poll here for 1st GIG, so I just added two more for the other two suggested mergers.

132.205.95.25 20:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merge: Stand Alone Complex with this article.

I am proposing that we merge Stand Alone Complex with this one. Because:

1. It says on its page that it's a neologism...

2. It is currently misleading, seemingly indicating it is real-world phenomenon.

3. We do not have a "Ghost" article, which is an even more important concept in the GitS universe.

- 70.51.8.73 04:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I consider #3 invalid, because the absence of a desired article is not an argument for the absence of a less desired one; the latter must stand alone (*cough*) as an article to be included, or deleted / merged otherwise. Otherwise, I agree. The whole 'Stand Alone Complex' term is vague, unlikely to progress beyond stub status, and will undoubtedly remain a catchphrase of a single anime series. — Wisq (talk) 19:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I dunno how unlikely it is to broaden in scope; I have my own theories that Willy on Wheels is a Stand Alone Complex ... what do you think? --Cyde↔Weys 23:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

As for the merging...

I think it does make sense to have one article on the Stand Alone Complex series as a whole and then two other individual articles for the two seasons. It's kind of confusing to me that the episodes lists are all merged together somewhere else, however. Might those be merged back into the individual articles on the seasons? --Cyde↔Weys 18:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that could be done in an article that is about the over all GITS universe, and actually make this overview article be Ghost in the Shell. -- Ned Scott 03:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. --Miss Ethereal 14:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

If anything, the Stand Alone Complex article should be based only on the idea of the concept as a philosophical entity, should "real world" readings or experts acknowledge it, with only minimal references to the anime. I think a merged Ghost in the Shell article would be the simplest way to contain information efficiently on the movies, mangas, and anime, leaving Stand Alone Complex open for the philosophical topic. This may, however, create quite a long article unless a great deal of information was trimmed. Xiliquiern 04:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Wrong information on Voice actors section

The section "Japanese voice cast" covers the characters from 2nd GIG, not SAC. Instead of an information about the voice actor of a main character such as The Laughing Man, There are Hideo Kuze and Yoko Kayabuki, who hasn't appeared on SAC but on 2nd GIG. I think somebody had confused these 2 series. As I don't know not much stuffs on gits such as who acted The Laughing Man, etc. I want you who know this to help it. --Handoŋsəŋ 17:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Where's all the trivia gone?

I'm sure last time I visited this page there was a whole bunch more trivia than just concerning the first two episodes, like all the Jean-Luc Godard homage in ep 3, Salinger references like the GoSeeBananaFish posters in episode 12 and "Fuck you" graffiti, and so on; I remember adding some myself. What happen? YourMessageHere 03:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably more vandalism from the anti-fiction people, it seems to be a growing problem in wikipedia at the moment. Best thing is to revert unless they adequately explain their deletions. 81.152.196.46 00:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC) Elmo

Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex in Australia?

Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex is no longer being shown on sbs and has moved to Cartoon Network's Adult Swim block.

I'd change it but i'm rather lost when it comes to editing pages ^^o Bride of lister 03:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Character Names (Translation Issue?)

Taking a look at the credits on my DVD, I notice that one of the Section 9 member's is listed as 'Borma', not 'Boma'. This can be confirmed in both the Japanese cast listing and the English cast listing as well as through audio confirmation by simply listening to other characters use his name. Therefore, unless someone who can translate the original manga says otherwise, I propose all references be changed to 'Borma'. Additionally, I propose a new sweep through character names to find similar potential oversights. Watermellonman 05:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Unless I'm missing something, all officially English-translated media, such as the DVD credits/subtitles and novels, refer to him as "Borma". As with the Dullindal/Durandal debate, I believe the rule of thumb "when in doubt, stick by the most recent official English transliteration/translation" can also be applied here; after all, I think the "Bateau/Batou" debate has basically died down. In Japan, since the character's name is officially written in katakana, it's easier for different companies and people to make contradictory transliterations and cause confusion. I will add a footnote about alternate renderings to Borma's description on the character page. Next up: Pazu vs. Paz. Tony Myers 03:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Promotional poster vs. opening sequence screencap, round one! DING!

Should the current image in the infobox be changed to a screen capture of the show's logo from the opening sequence? The picture itself is fine; I'm just not sure about it because it doesn't depict the official logo, and this is the only Wikipedia page on which this picture appears.

What do you guys think? Tony Myers 02:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree. The opening sequence graphic is worthy and appropriate. Watermellonman 16:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

What does GiG mean ?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.57.61.184 (talk • contribs)

From what I gather, GIG is a weird way to mean season. –Pomte 02:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

In the same way that musicians refer to a contracted performance as a gig. Collabi 00:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

It's actually a pun on that. Gig is tech-jargon for Gigabyte, a measurement of data volume. Each volume of episodes was ordered separately by the TV station. The particular choice of the word Gig was well chosen due to the fact that the funding, reporting and support structure for Section 9 changed after the end of the first season, so they were essentially rehired under different terms. RuediiX (talk) 07:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

the thermo-optical camouflage

i was wondering should we add that anything other than using sight (i.e. a dogs nose) can still tell that the person was there? Amben27 09:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

There are several instances of dogs detecting thermo-optical camouflage users. Also, special equipment/veiwing different wavelengths of light has been seen to detect thermo-optical camouflage. -- Monty845 12:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

oh, i didn't know that. still should we add that or no? Amben27 05:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Even though it's true that humans are far more jaded to the inconsistencies such as sound smell and environmental impact still coming from the location, I think it's a little too obvious to point out. RuediiX (talk) 07:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The "world" section

I guess i am willing to be corrected, but i highly doubt the accuracy of the section entitled "the world" on this article as anything other than speculation, and thus not suitable for wikipedia. To the best of my knowledge, nowhere in any of the GITS films, or series, or mangas is the world geopolitical situation established, or anything of that nature more than hinted at. And also, in the Stand Alone Complex films, references are made to China and the United States as independent nations, not members of any kind of superstate. I suggest this section either provide viable sources for its information, or it be removed to preserve the integrity of the article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Minarelli (talk • contribs)

Agreed. Image:Gits-world.PNG describes the map as one editor's original research based on an unlabelled map in the anime. –Pomte 22:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

A solution could be to make a new map with only the confirmed states in gits SAC , or only one about the american empire etc. I agree that the map is hardly correct , I just made it so it could be improved. If that can't be done i agree that it's best to remove it.

Cde7r 16:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be fine, any information that can be verified as factually accurate is helpful. Personally, i dont have the depth of knowledge or expertise to do it, mind...

minarelli 25 April 2007

The map definatly contradicts with facts from SAC. America split into 3. The US, American Empire, and the Russian-American Union [Persumably, that's only Russia and Alaska.] Also, its made apparent that Asia isn't one big union at the mention of the nations there and even once an episode that occured in Taiwan. It's also mentioned Angel liked to flee between VEITNAM and CHINA, before going to Japan, suggesting they are seperate countries. FinalWish 22:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, I just saw an episode that occoured in "England", not "Europe". And all the ? crap makes it apparent how unconfirmed the whole thing really is. FinalWish 01:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The episode with Marcelo Jardie also mentions he's a South American Druglord and of 'AE' American Empire? nationality

The Laughing Man film--needs special section?

Just recently I added a seperate section for the new voice actors employed in recent English language release of the Laughing Man film. With this new release, however, the question needs to be asked if a new section to the GitS:SAC article needs to be written in order to address the subtle differences between the series and the film? For example, certain minor changes in the time frame of events in the original series are made to accomodate a shorter story for the film. This is evidenced as when in the opening chapters of the film Togusa gets a call from a detective he used to work with in the prefectural police department to meet about the Laughing Man case BEFORE and DURING the events of first episode of series (the take down of the Geisha androids) rather than seperately and later in the original SAC time frame. Are these details worth noting or are these differences too subtle to merit a subsection? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?--SinisterLemon 09:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think a new section would about the new OAV would be good but I don't think it needs to go into every major/minor difference that the movie takes. You should also probably place the voice cast info in the new section as well. The three column layout for the voice casting as it is now doesn't look good cosmetically. Strongsauce 10:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The largest difference is the cutting out of footage not relivant to the Laughing Man case. The presentation, however, gives much more focus into the case, and makes the viewer actually look into the real motivations behind the each person caught up in the events. I really think we could give each of the three DVD releases their own sections, and it's justified, as of needed, well the Laughing Man film definitely could use one, as readers could also be referred to it for non-episode specific details on the series. Additionally a 2-page minimum format would be ideal, this separates the first section on production, credits and inspiration from the sections on storyline and fandom. RuediiX (talk) 07:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)