Talk:Giacomo Meyerbeer/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Composer of the Month for May 2006
Meyerbeer is The composer of the month for May on the Opera Project.
We need articles on the following operas: Il crociato in Egitto, L'étoile du nord, Ein Feldlager in Schlesien, Margherita d’Anjou, Le prophète
While the following could benefit from more attention: L'Africaine, Les Huguenots, Robert le diable.
Kleinzach 09:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Have produced something for Il crociato in Egitto, q.v.--Smerus 12:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Composer project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is a weak B; it's content is fairly basic, and there are structure and format issues. The details are in my review on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 03:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
He was a French national, so how come he is German composer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.81.181 (talk) 08:08, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
- Read the article--Smerus (talk) 08:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
Infobox
Don't you guys think that an infobox would be great for this article?--Mishae (talk) 05:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- It would not. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:03, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- The consensus over a long period has been against infoboxes for composers on English WP. --Smerus (talk) 07:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Mishae, you tried this on over at Talk:Georges Bizet (and maybe other places for all I know). You were told there what the state of play is. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ [your turn] 08:32, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Composition Listing
One thing this article needs is a good, referenced composition listing. While Meyerbeer wrote largely for the opera he also composed a large number of Art Songs and other works, which should be put into the context of his operatic career.Graham1973 (talk) 04:03, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
- nb List of operas by Meyerbeer already exists. Perhaps the first priority should be to get the article as a whole up to scratch.--Smerus (talk) 08:31, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
- Made a first step by running down the Stanford quote. The text preceding the portion I quoted contains some rather dubious claims about Meyerbeer, (1). Writing multiple versions of the same passage so he could make the final choice at rehersal. (2). Renting flats on consecutive floors to keep his work-in-progress secret. (3). Getting audience feedback on what music gathered the most applause. I've downloaded three other books by Stanford and am going to see if I can locate another such anecdotes.Graham1973 (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
- The other anecdotes you mention are typical of the gossip spread about M. The first is just untrue - although he frequently rewrote passages (as did many other composers) which didn't 'come off' in rehearsal. The second is nonsense. The third is also untrue - there is no mention of this anywhere in his diaries, and indeed why should he get feedback? He could hear in the theatre as well as anyone else what went down well. Finally, even if all of these gobbets were true, they would have nothing to do with evaluation of his music or character. Every conscientious person wants to do a good job. The Stanford piece you do quote I should say was also suspect - I find no mention anywhere that M. composed at the piano, and I wonder if this was just assumed by Stanford? I think we should seek supporting evidence for this if it is to be left in. Best, --Smerus (talk) 06:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- I've read through enough of Stanfords writings to know that he was indeed a purveyor of somewhat dubious stories, including claims that Beethovens 7th & Dvořák 9th Symphonies used Irish themes!?! However, my search of those writings reveal that his view of Meyerbeer was somewhat like the roughly contemporous views held about Sullivan, namely a very talented composer, who sacrificed his art for commercial success, stating that the duet in Act 4 of Les Huguenots was the work of a composer "...creatively ... head and shoulders above Liszt."Graham1973 (talk) 11:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for this. Stanford was an engaging fellow and I think a good composer -the WP article on him is excellent btw - but perhaps an unreliable raconteur?--Smerus (talk) 11:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- No problem, you might be interested to know that Project Gutenberg has uploaded a late 19th/early 20th C book on the history of opera. [1]. Meyerbeer is mentioned and again Act 4 of Les Huguenots comes up for special mention.Graham1973 (talk) 13:15, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for this. Stanford was an engaging fellow and I think a good composer -the WP article on him is excellent btw - but perhaps an unreliable raconteur?--Smerus (talk) 11:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- I've read through enough of Stanfords writings to know that he was indeed a purveyor of somewhat dubious stories, including claims that Beethovens 7th & Dvořák 9th Symphonies used Irish themes!?! However, my search of those writings reveal that his view of Meyerbeer was somewhat like the roughly contemporous views held about Sullivan, namely a very talented composer, who sacrificed his art for commercial success, stating that the duet in Act 4 of Les Huguenots was the work of a composer "...creatively ... head and shoulders above Liszt."Graham1973 (talk) 11:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- The other anecdotes you mention are typical of the gossip spread about M. The first is just untrue - although he frequently rewrote passages (as did many other composers) which didn't 'come off' in rehearsal. The second is nonsense. The third is also untrue - there is no mention of this anywhere in his diaries, and indeed why should he get feedback? He could hear in the theatre as well as anyone else what went down well. Finally, even if all of these gobbets were true, they would have nothing to do with evaluation of his music or character. Every conscientious person wants to do a good job. The Stanford piece you do quote I should say was also suspect - I find no mention anywhere that M. composed at the piano, and I wonder if this was just assumed by Stanford? I think we should seek supporting evidence for this if it is to be left in. Best, --Smerus (talk) 06:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
- Made a first step by running down the Stanford quote. The text preceding the portion I quoted contains some rather dubious claims about Meyerbeer, (1). Writing multiple versions of the same passage so he could make the final choice at rehersal. (2). Renting flats on consecutive floors to keep his work-in-progress secret. (3). Getting audience feedback on what music gathered the most applause. I've downloaded three other books by Stanford and am going to see if I can locate another such anecdotes.Graham1973 (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Assessment comment
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Giacomo Meyerbeer/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
| Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
|---|---|
| ==Comment==
Very well developed. Seems like B to me. Their are plenty of references, though not many citations to the text showing direct connections. A person infobox is still needed, but there is plenty of other supporting material. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 16:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
This is an assessment of article Giacomo Meyerbeer by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===
===Summary=== This is a reasonably informative biography, but it suffers from a number of flaws, some of which are fact-related, and some of which are structural. The biography is largely limited to his musical activities. Beyond the early years, little mention is made of any personal relationships, or the cause of death. Little mention is also made of any professional positions he may have held. Given the wealth in the family, it is unclear whether he had such positions (beyond the one in Berlin that is mentioned). The section on Wagner is almost entirely about Wagner; we know nothing about how Meyerbeer responded or felt about these attacks. It is also unclear whether he wrote anything other than operas; clearly that is what he is known for, so it deserves the most space. But if he wrote anything else, it could at least be mentioned. The musical appreciation (especially critical and popular commentary) could be improved. In terms of structure and writing, there are a variety of issues. The lead is short; the footer material is not organized per WP:LAYOUT. There are a significant number of one-sentence paragraphs; these should either be expanded or folded into neighboring material. And this is an encyclopedia for most everyone; please don't demonstrate your prolix verbosity; eschew the use of words like desuetude. This article is a weak B; it has basic content, and needs work. Magic♪piano 03:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC) | |
Last edited at 03:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 16:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Wagner & the death of Meyerbeer
The article tells us about the reaction of Wagner on the death of Meyerbeer. The sentence goes: Wagner's autobiography 'Mein Leben', circulated amongst his friends (and published openly in 1911), contains constant sniping at Meyerbeer and concludes with Wagner exulting over Meyerbeer's death. However, is Wagner really exulting over de death of Meyerbeer? The autobiography of Wagner (Mein Leben) reads as follows:
While we were at table Eckert was informed by telegram of Meyerbeer's death in Paris, and Weisheimer burst out in boorish laughter to think that the master of opera, who had done me so much harm, had by a strange coincidence not lived to see this day.
Is this really exulting over the death of someone? Wagner merely wrote that someone in his company laughed about it and pointed out that Meyerbeer did him much harm. I took the liberty to change this. C.Gesualdo (talk) 15:33, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
- You are correct; although his companions seem gratified, Wagner leaves his own feelings to be inferred, rather than stating them explicitly.--Smerus (talk) 15:40, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Honour
User:Carolus has twice inserted into the article a new section headed "Honours" with the information that Meyerbeer received the Order of Leopold (Belgium). Meyerbeer received many decorations from European monarchs as a matter of politeness. The Order of Leopold had no effect on his career, and was not significant in any way - the only connection I know of with Belgium is that he occasionally took holidays in Spa. I have therefore deleted Carolus's edit as WP:UNDUE and invite any discussion here.--Smerus (talk) 10:26, 5 June 2017 (UTC) Rediculous, if there are other honours they should be displayed.--Carolus (talk) 18:05, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
- I do not see any harm in listing all of the honours Meyerbeer received in a section called "Honours", if anyone has access to that information. I would tend to agree that it is undue to include just that one particular honour.Smeat75 (talk) 19:27, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
- Fair enough. The list shouldn't however duplicate text already in the article.Smerus (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
"Meyerbeer's works are only infrequently performed today"- has this changed?
operabase.com shows for the last season, 2015-2016, new productions of L'Africaine in Berlin,Le prophète in Karlsruhe and Les Huguenots in Nice. This season, 2016-2017, there are new productions of Le prophète in Essen and Toulouse, Les Huguenots in Kiel, Würzburg and Berlin, and even performances of L'étoile du Nord and Margherita d'Anjou. [2] So is it still true to say his operas are "only infrequently performed today"? would it not be true to say that especially in Germany, they are being revived more and more often, with Huguenots in particular now almost a repertory piece? Just posting this here to get other opinions, I will not make any edits to the article right now.Smeat75 (talk) 23:47, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
- I am inclined to agree. (There's a production of Les Huguenots coming up in Budapest as well!) When the article gained GA status only a few years ago the statement was true; but this does indeed seem to be changing. One consequence is the now long - indeed overlong - list of productions in the final paragraph, which could now expand even further. I think some rewording, noting this development, would be appropriate, together with a note into which notable revivals, including many of those already in the paragraph, can be exported - that would keep things proportionate.Smerus (talk) 05:25, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
- I have made a stab at revising the relevant parts of the article along the lines you suggested Smerus, please feel free to revise and improve my alterations.Smeat75 (talk) 23:34, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
- Many thanks for this, looks fine for the present!Smerus (talk) 08:54, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
- Returning from the Franfurt Opera: they announce L'Africaine for the next season. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:26, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
- Many thanks for this, looks fine for the present!Smerus (talk) 08:54, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
- I have made a stab at revising the relevant parts of the article along the lines you suggested Smerus, please feel free to revise and improve my alterations.Smeat75 (talk) 23:34, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
External links modified
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Poster image?
The image captioned as a "poster" for "Le pardon de Ploermel" looks a lot more like a cover for a score to me.
Can the author review and correct that please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keithmur (talk • contribs) 14:46, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
- Source says it's a poster.--Smerus (talk) 15:11, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Wagner's correspondence with Mayerbeer
This article describes Wagner's correspondence to Mayerbeer as "cringingly obsequious." According to whom is it cringingly obsequious? If this is a direct quote from the cited source, it should be in quotation marks, otherwise, the adverb "cringingly" should be removed, I think. Matuko (talk) 12:41, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
- Quite right, although the citation was in fact given, now clarified. Thanks, --Smerus (talk) 18:06, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Misleading line?
I find this line misleading: who has been described as perhaps the most successful stage composer of the nineteenth century
. While I recognize that it is phrased so as he has "been described" (by a reliable source), its misleading because Meyerbeer was only really active in the first half of the 19th century, and claiming he was the most successful in a century with both Verdi and Wagner doesn't really make sense. I would suggest this be changed to something along the lines of "perhaps the most successful stage composer of the first half of the nineteenth century." (or "early nineteenth century," "mid nineteenth century," etc.) -- Aza24 (talk) 20:56, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- That's right, it is referenced to a reliable source.
- It says "perhaps".
- It is obviously not trying to say that Meyerbeer's operas were more successful in an artistic sense than Verdi's or Wagner's, such a value judgement would have no place in a reliable source or an encyclopedia, but that Meyerbeer's operas were perhaps the most successful throughout the 19th century in terms of the number of performances, the box office receipts they took, the acclaim from critics and appreciation of audiences, etc.
- So no, I don't think the line is misleading.Smeat75 (talk) 21:23, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Smeat75: If we're speaking purely on a business sense rather than an artistic sense, that makes sense. Maybe this should be more reflected in that line. I proposed a suggested change because when I first read it I wasn't really sure how one could describe him as such since there are so many successful composers throughout the 19th century (and Wagner and Verdi can both seemingly be described as "perhaps the most successful stage composer of the nineteenth century"). That being said I think others who don't know about Meyerbeer might be confused, thoughts? Aza24 (talk) 02:39, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think Smeat75 has it right. And I don't at all accept Aza24's characterizations of Wagner and Verdi, at least as far as the 19th century is concerned. Wagner was not at all successful in opera houses in the 19th century until the 1890s (and of course thereafter). Verdi similarly was not accepted as amongst the greats until the last quarter of the century. Whereas Meyerbeer was a box-office smash at least from 'Il crociato' (1824) until World War I. We should not read back our own artistic preferences to previous eras. Those "who don't know about Meyerbeer" can come here and learn. --Smerus (talk) 09:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- BUT whilst I don't find the wording misleading (as the source is [cough] in fact myself under another guise) I have found something which is clearer and independent, and am replacing the phrase accordingly.--Smerus (talk) 19:11, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- Lol, I wasn't trying to "read back my own artistic preferences to previous eras", I just wasn't aware of their main success being, as you said, at the near end of the 19th century, or not 19th century at all. (So thank you for letting me know!) The line is definitely clearer now and the addition about "linking Mozart and Wagner" makes it even better! Aza24 (talk) 22:03, 7 May 2020 (UTC)