Talk:Ging Gang Goolie

Jewish version from about 1903

The Hebrew website Zemereshet brings this song as "Chin Quai". https://www.zemereshet.co.il/song.asp?id=2434. A version of the song published in 1978 in the journal "Et-mol" from the testimony of Baruch Ben Yeuhuda https://rosetta.nli.org.il/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_func=stream&dps_pid=FL42393910 The first part of the tune is the familiar one, the second different. The accompanying story is that after the Zionist congress in 1903, where a suggestion was raised to settle Jews in Ughanda, Jewish students in Vienna sang this song as a proposed hymn of the future Jewish state in Ughanda (as an act of protest). A student who immigrated to Israel and became a teacher in Herzlia Gymnasium transmitted the song during a 1912 trip. Other (probably less reliable) versions of the anecdote tell that the song was sung as portest during the congress itself. This evidence strenthens the relation of the song in central European students. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yosef goldenberg (talk • contribs) 8 September 2021 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM applies. Toddst1 (talk) 21:50, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

The sixth Zionist Congress took place 1903 in Basel, Switzerland, wheras the Austrian meeting took place 1904, whereby the Ugandan project already was closed, ref https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Zionist_Congress

There were already a few cousins to the Ging Gang song available at the time, even before the turn of the century, ref the archived version of this Talk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.67.203.86 (talk) 17:25, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Hungary and Baden-Powell involvement, another myth

I have deleted the paragraph on Godollo 1937, Baden-Powell and White Stag for several reasons (see Conclusions below).

Wikipedia offers anybody the opportunity to add any type of contribution anywhere. Which is good. The contributions are scrutinized by editors and readers and then corrective changes may occur. All in order to reach the goal of offering an encyclopedia with statements/articles that are supported by factual references preferably easily available.

Now, in the article on Ging-Gang, right after the sentence “Robert Baden-Powell is often quoted as the originator of the song, but there is no evidence that he was involved in its creation nor its introduction.”

a recent contributor - without offering any supporting evidence or reference - claims that Baden-Powell was involved and that the scouts created Ging Gang Goolie with a purpose.

“During the 1937 World Jamboree in Godollo, Hungary; Lord Baden-Powell challenged the youth staff to find a song that every scout of every nation in attendance could sing. He further instructed these scouts that the song must be something that they could all understand. Borrowing from the nonsensical aforementioned Swedish song these scouts created what would become Ging Gang Goolie. The lyrics have no distinctive meaning, but the collective meaning of the song has come to signify the unity of the family of scouts around the world. Paul Sujan and Bela Banathy were scouts in attendance at this jamboree and he brought Ging Gang Goolie to scouts in the Monterey Bay Area Council through the White Stag Junior Leadership Training program which he co-founded with Bella Banathy in 1959 at Pico Blanco Scout Reservation. The spirit of Ging Gang Goolie continues to be spread throughout the scouting community by youth and adult alumni of White Stag JLT.”

Discussion

The myth of Baden-Powell as originator started 2006 on the web with an article (without references/sources) on h2g2.com (Hitchhikers Guide acronym). The main content of that article was then copied and pasted same year into the first Ging Gang article on Wikipedia, without references to h2g2. In archived parts of this Talk I refer to a statement (here shortened) by the then UK Scout Association Archive & Heritage Manager, Daniel Scott-Davies, about "Ging Gang Goolie" and Baden-Powell (after he had researched their library including Paden-Powell´s papers): “… so I would conclude that he wasn't the creator or introducer of the song.” The same archived parts include background to the discussion below.

The myth of Baden-Powell as originator of the song might have started around the 1950-ies. Although, when the Boy Scout Association finally included the song in an English scout song book , this was in 1952, not too long after the death of Baden-Powell in 1941, the origin of the song was stated as “Scout traditional” .

The World Jamboree in Gödöllö, Hungary took place in 1933, not in 1937, as quoted in the contribution.

The song was most likely sung at the 2nd World Jamboree in Denmark 1924, since it was included in the Danish scout song book already 1919 (“Sjing Sjang”), ref the Danish Scout Association. And if it caught on at the Jamboree (it does so easily) it might well have been included and sung elsewhere, where scouts met, e g the 3rd World Jamboree 1929 in UK. So the song spread presumably rather fast, e g it was included 1932 in the song book of the Japanese Scout Association: “Shin Shan Guri Guri". Typical that the spelling of the lyrics was based on local pronounciation and “alphabet”. Comparatively, the early adopters among Swedish and Finnish scouts sang “Tjinkan Kinkan” (song books of 1923).

The first recording was made 1926 in New York, USA: “Kinkan”, a Scandinavian version.

Two musical cousins (music- and lyrics-wise) existed in parallel in UK: (according to the Opies) “Hi Politi Politaska” (similar to “Oh Nicodemo” and “Em Pom Pee”) before World War 1 with Holiday Fellowship in UK, a hiking organization, and “Kiliwatch”, which made the BSA song book in 1926. This might have contributed to the relative fast penetration of Ging Gang.

The song (and its musical cousins) engaged people by its nonsense words and simple, easily learned tune and rythm. And does so today (ref the immense number of youtube videos from different sources with different purposes: scouts, orchestras, fitness/dance classes, night club, etc). By comparison, the ancestors of Ging Gang were probably a fusion of nursery rhymes and student drinking songs by the end of the 19th century in Central Europe.

Paul Sujan and Bela Banathy deserve due respect for having contributed to the White Stag organization.

Conclusions

• Still no evidence that Baden-Powell was involved with the song.
• No evidence that the World Jamboree in Gödöllö, Hungary, was a key event for the song
• The scouts did not create Ging Gang but used the spelling rules of their own language when making their own versions of Ging Gang. The 1952 BSA song book (and later editions) thereby influenced large parts of the world
• The song has become popular and wide spread in many parts of society mainly due to its own characteristics, not because Baden-Powell or anybody else stated any special purposes. However, the myth that Baden-Powell was involved, might have added to its penetration of the scouting world.
• The section of the article is about the origin of the song and not about the White Stag organization in the Bay Area.

Brommabo (talk) 12:58, 19 June 2022 (UTC)