Talk:Ginger Baker

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I'm surprised to read an article about Ginger Baker that doesn't mention his teacher and mentor the great Phil Seamen. Thermosoverfil (talk) 19:56, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Did Ginger get his money back?

The fraud case was filed in 2008. Does anyone know if the case went to trial? Did Ginger prevail? (71.22.47.232 (talk) 09:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC))

Navbox for Ginger Baker

Can a navbox be created for Ginger Baker based on Ginger Baker's three albums and Ginger Baker's Air Force's two albums? --Jax 0677 (talk) 20:33, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Ginger?

how about a word or two on why he uses a female nickname? gotta be something interesting there! 209.172.25.81 (talk) 01:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Ya think maybe cause 'ginger' is used as a nickname for people with red hair? That be my guess. 184.77.158.71 (talk) 23:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I would add that Keith Moon colored his hair to match an outfit he wore when he saw the Who early on. Daltrey or Townshend, recalling the incident, mentioned that here was this geezer dressed all ginger - ginger clothes and hair, holding a glass of ginger. So maybe in the US ginger might be considered a 'female' nickname/name, in the UK and possibly other places it's related to the color red.THX1136 (talk) 16:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Deleting (possibly unintentional) vandalism

Somebody either knowingly or cluelessly added "facts" about Ginger Baker assaulting two burglars (taken from a satirical website). 160.111.254.17 (talk) 14:05, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Selection of photo used above the bio summary

Who selects the photo that sits above the summary information (top right of page) and why did they chose such a poor image when there are thousands of images available (with and without drum kit) that portray Ginger Baker's character /persona far better than the one selected? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.173.223.170 (talk) 00:42, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

A pioneer in jazz fusion drumming

Ginger Baker is not a pioneer in jazz fusion drumming. You need many more sources, and much more consensus, to make a large claim like that. He is mostly known as a rock drummer. I've never seen him called a pioneer in jazz fusion. Please remove the POV cheerleading and let's keep the articles impartial and down to earth without any grandiose claims.
Vmavanti (talk) 02:11, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Reading his autobiography it's very obvious that his early influences were jazz-based, especially Big band, such as Jack Parnell and Ted Heath. In his obituary in The Guardian today Adam Sweeting says this : "He brought Winwood and Grech into a new jazz-rock fusion project, Ginger Baker’s Air Force" and "Baker.. continued to collaborate with Laswell, with Middle Passage (1990), a mix of Afrobeat, rock and jazz-fusion." So some of his later work is certainly focused on jazz fusion. But to say he was a pioneer is indeed rather very strong claim. Billboard says, for example, "In 1972, Baker released two solo albums, Ginger Baker at His Best and Stratavarious, in which he dabbled in jazz fusion and Afrobeat." Martinevans123 (talk) 20:28, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and always got the impression he was peeved at ending up in a rock band. He didn't, for eg, hold any other rock drummers in high regard, compared to contemporary jazz players. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Martinevans offers the fact that that "it's very obvious" (to whom?) "that his influences were jazz-based". Let's look carefully at these words, because that's what we do here. If you've ever heard a song by Cream, the words "big band" don't automatically spring to mind. "Blues" might, because rock stole a lot from blues, especially in the 1960s when Cream formed. Eric Clapton built a lucrative career out of stealing the licks of black American blues guitarists. It's not obvious when hearing a rock song that a drummer was influenced by big band music. Stewart Copeland, whose father played trumpet in big bands, holds his sticks like a jazz drummer. Can you tell that by listening to his music or the Police's? No.

Let's break it down more: "influences" and "jazz-based". One can be influenced by something without imitating it, without adopting all of its characteristics. If you drizzle pepper on your salad, the lettuce doesn't disappear and turn into a pile of pepper. The salad doesn't become pepper. It's flavored by it. The subject of influence, in all kinds of fields, is subjective, speculative, and vague. One can't built concrete arguments on that. They will sink. To say something is "jazz-based" is different from calling it jazz. Your salad is pepper based, but isn't pepper. To paraphrase Mark Twain, there is a difference between "lightning" and "lightning bug". Judging by the words provided here, Adam Sweeting at The Guardian doesn't make much of a case when he calls one on Ginger Baker's bands ("projects"...ugh) "jazz-rock fusion". Most critics distinguish between jazz, jazz rock, and jazz fusion. They are not identical. I'm not sure the middle term means anything at all. Calling something "jazz rock fusion" makes no sense, just as saying Baker combined rock and jazz fusion makes no sense. Jazz fusion is a combination of jazz and rock. It already has rock in it. What do you get when you add more rock to jazz fusion? I don't know. Rock?

The fact that he worked with Bill Laswell isn't much of a point either. Laswell was never a mainstream jazz musician. Even if he were, you get the same problem of failing to make distinctions. Many non-jazz musicians perform with jazz musicians and vice versa. If I'm under six feet tall, and I join I basketball team where everyone is over six feet tall, does that automatically make me six feet tall? It helps to have some knowledge of these matters. Compare the Guardian's comments to a video at YouTube by Rick Beato called "Why Do People Hate Jazz?" The brief but specific comments he makes about particular musicians reveal his knowledge of the subject.

I would like see Wikipedia articles stop becoming love letters. Why not save romance for actual humans? Take the romance out of articles. Take out the love letters, the cheerleading, the fanboy stuff. "Fan" is short for "fanatic". There ought to be no fanaticism in something as boring and factual as an encyclopedia. One has to be notable to appear in Wikipedia to begin with. There's no need to add frosting. There's no reason to promote and puff up (lie?) in articles. Ginger Baker wasn't a pioneer in anything, as far as I know. So what?
–Vmavanti (talk) 18:48, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

When Martinevans was offering "the fact" that "it's very obvious", he was probably thinking about Baker's later career and his collaboration with African musicians. Not when he was "a very fat and pompous amphibian in the Bufonidae family". Maybe he was just reading his Autobiography and saw the kind of musicians Baker himself claimed he was keen on in his youth, when he was still drumming on the tops of desks at Shooter's Hill Grammar. But we could ask him, I guess. Then again, so what. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:57, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

So what? Well, words have meanings. That's so what. When one writes and edits words, one has to have reasons. Are you withdrawing the claim, then, that Baker was a pioneer in jazz fusion drumming? Or are you saying that, because at the end of his life he performed with Africans, he suddenly became a pioneer in jazz fusion drumming?
–Vmavanti (talk) 21:58, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

When did I claim that he was a pioneer in jazz fusion drumming? I said "But to say he was a pioneer is indeed rather very strong claim." Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

You're right. That was someone else. But did you refer to yourself in the third person?
–Vmavanti (talk) 02:32, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

The article currently makes three pioneer claims: "... pioneered both jazz fusion and world music", "... one of the early pioneers of double bass drumming in rock", and "... widely considered a pioneer of heavy metal drumming". Maybe we should examine if these are adequately supported by the exiting sources? I also see that The Daily Telegraph describes Baker as "The pioneering rock drummer... " Meanwhile I'd urge you to not put so much pepper on your salad and to not join the basketball team. For me Baker's association with jazz is perhaps best summed up by Rolling Stone here, where Hank Shteamer says: “Baker proudly shouted out his jazz influences throughout his life, but he was well into his Fifties by the time he put out an album in the style under his own name [Going Back Home]." But I see that he doesn't use the word "fusion" at all. That other RS article quotes Baker as follows: “Oh for god’s sake, I’ve never played rock,” the drummer, who turns 80 today, said testily during a 2013 interview. “Cream was two jazz players and a blues guitarist playing improvised music. We never played the same thing two nights running. … It was jazz." Martinevans123 (talk) 07:36, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Which point do you want to talk about it? 1) Baker was a pioneer in heavy metal drumming, 2) Baker was a pioneer in jazz fusion drumming. Comments like "Cream was two jazz players and a blues guitarist playing improvised music" remind me that many British people don't know what jazz is. (That he said it when he was old shortly before his death in a fit of exasperation means we ought to take his comment with a huge grain of salt.) That's one reason I suggested you watch the Rick Beato video. It's one reason I put a list of jazz books on my User page. It's one reason why I engage in conversations like this to try to educate people. Ignorance isn't a crime or a sin or even a humiliation. The desire to learn, which involves correcting one's mistakes, one's thinking, one's behavior, is extremely important for anyone presuming to call themselves a writer or editor. Anyone who works on the jazz project ought to be confident in their views on jazz. Rolling Stone is not the best teacher. It's not much of a magazine either. Is Hank Shteamer a pseudonym? An amusing name! Please let me know what subject you want to dig into.
–Vmavanti (talk) 14:20, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

It's so reassuring to learn that "ignorance isn't a crime or a sin or even a humiliation", even when one is British. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:52, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Do you know of any reliable American sources that call Cream a jazz band?
–Vmavanti (talk) 14:28, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say I do not. Although I think the subject here is Ginger Baker, not Cream. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:53, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

All the above conversation feels very like speculation or original resarch. Under Wikipedia's Verifiability policy, this question comes down to only one thing: can we provide sources that say specifically that Baker "pioneered both jazz fusion and world music" (as our lead currently does)?

The current source given is an entire book, with no page number given; the only relevant passage I can spot is - in a passage actually discussing Tony Williams - "...in counterpoint to British rock drummers like Ginger Baker and John Bonham, who were weaving jazz influences into their creative rock drumming approach". I don't think that is enough of a source - if he was genuinely recognised as a pioneer of jazz fusion, finding a source that specifically says exactly that shouldn't be hard.

That's all that matters. Our opinions on whether we think his jazz influences are obvious, or who he worked with, are all irrelevant. For the article to say he was a pioneer of jazz fusion drumming, we simply need a reliable source that says exactly that. TSP (talk) 14:43, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

It's odd that you would say this article "feels like" original research and ask about sources immediately after I asked a question about sources. Whatever your feelings are, the discussion isn't so off in outer space as you might think. Martinevans does discuss sources. But it's unclear which point he wants to discuss. After he decides that, we can begin the discussion. You seem to suggest that Talk pages are not for thinking, deliberation, for digging, for engaging in debate. That's the very thing Talk pages are for. There's no way to eliminate human judgement when humans are involved. We use our own judgment all the time, as you did in your post. Obviously there is a difference between "I want Ginger Baker to be thought of as a jazz musician" and what reliable sources say. Moreover, it's rarely as simple as "the source says this" and leave it at that. As I proved, The Guardian critic's words were incoherent. Nowhere are Wikpedia editors encouraged to paraphrase incoherence.
–Vmavanti (talk) 14:54, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Please don't feel like you have to wait for him to decide. Go right ahead. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:54, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Paul Tingen wrote on page 50 in his 2001 book Miles Beyond that Cream's Ginger Baker and Jack Bruce considered themselves jazz musicians "and with sets featuring extensive collective improvisations, the band was one of the pioneers of jazz-rock." Of course jazz-rock is jazz fusion. Tingen is saying that Baker and Bruce were the reason that Cream was pioneering the fusion genre. Music author Brock Helander writes that "Ginger Baker instituted the long drum solo into rock, a phenomenon that became almost obligatory" for live stage shows. But he contradicts Baker as "pioneer" by saying that, of all three Cream musicians, "Jack Bruce was the real musical pioneer" for his bass ostinato "heavy riff" style above which he played lead, thereby freeing the bass from its purely rhythmic role. Helander follows this by pointing out that Eric Clapton "unwittingly created the cult of the super-star guitarist...", making each of the three Cream players important for establishing something new. All of this is on page 141 of The Rock Who's Who (1996). I've seen sources that say Tony Williams (drummer) was single-most important pioneer of jazz fusion drumming, so let's not place Baker above that. Binksternet (talk) 15:28, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

After the fact by a few years, but what TSP explained is the bottom line - if there is a reliable source that substantiates a claim it makes no difference what I, you or they think. Wikipedia has always followed this tack. I may think a band played pop music, while another might think it was rock. If all sources identify the groups music as pop, it makes no difference what I think about what the article on this group says. The sources say pop, it's pop.THX1136 (talk) 16:56, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Kit

I do hope that the "esoteric" Instruments and sound section, detailing his drum kits and equipment, recently removed as uncited, might be restored at some stage, perhaps after he's appeared in ITN/RD on the Main Page. Here's a possible online source, which looks like it might have been the source originally used, e.g. "From 1966 to 1968, Ginger played a Ludwig Silver Sparkle:". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

That's the plan. I dont think its worth risking a RD over a listy section, which given sources such as you've found, could be a very interesting text para or two, if we had a white night who really knew their stuff. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Quite agree. I'm only a part-time and very casual drum-head, I'm afraid. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:43, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm not a huge fan of gearhead-oriented sections listing instruments and accessories without context – because the number of interested readers is very small – but if we can tell the regular layman some interesting facts about Baker's various kit then yes, let's do it. What not to do: lists of cymbal types and tom sizes (WP:INDISCRIMINATE). What to do: tell the reader about Baker's reasoning and his observations about his drum equipment choices. Tell about a problem he had with his drums. Tell about drum manufacturers wooing him. Tell about other drummers that copied his gear. Et cetera. Binksternet (talk) 00:26, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

One story that can be found in many sources including Baker's own autobiography is the fact that he fabricated his own perspex drum kit around 1960–1961, heating sheets of green-coloured acrylic plastic in his kitchen and bending them to form cylinders for his drums. He used the kit when he was in the Graham Bond Trio, and one time Charlie Watts agreed to play on Baker's kit to save time between musical acts. Watts said "I couldn't play it. Nothing would happen. I broke three sets of sticks. He had them set up so that the angle was all wrong for me... But Ginger could play them because his chops were so great. His wrists were amazing..." (page 130 of The Rolling Stones: the Origin of the Species: How, Why and Where It All Began.) Jack Bruce "destroyed" Baker's green plastic drum kit during an on-stage fight, while Baker was hitting Bruce in the head with drum sticks. The source for that last bit, page 12 of Classic Rock Drummers, is a small part of a large section about Baker's drumming style and his gear. Binksternet (talk) 19:45, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Awww, dear old Jack. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:05, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Conflicting death places

The infobox states that Baker died in Canterbury, yet later in the article it is stated that he died in Margate. I also found that Kent Live reported that he died in Canterbury. Can anyone clarify this? Joelson98 (talk) 23:03, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Clashes

Keeps saying he ‘clashed’ with Jack Bruce. What about? Trivial issues, fundamental professional matters ? What apart from ‘chemistry’ caused the abrasions? Examples, please. Or was Baker just a difficult, obstreperous bastard? Well, you get that. --2001:44B8:3102:BB00:188F:ECE1:321F:DB8F (talk) 07:45, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

It was a long-standing "feud" it seems: [1] Who knows how that feud started. Possibly only they would know that. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:50, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

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