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Patrician status
editI removed the sentence "The Giorgi family received patrician status in 930" on the grounds that a source more recent than 1864 would be needed to support such an assertion (which apparently conflicts with the date of first mention given by Treccani), but was reverted by an IP. I've now asked at the reliable sources noticeboard for comment on that source. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:21, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Dynasty
editAn IP has repeatedly added the description "dynasty" to this article, most recently with the edit summary "Justletterandnumbers: stop! If these surnames are in the onfobox they should also be in the article. Also, an historic family who had several rulers is called a dynasty. Don't undo revisions just for the sake of it on subjects you don't know about".
So, which members the family have "ruled" anything? Marin Zorzi was Doge of Venice for ten months; who else? Because if there are other significant rulers it is more than a little surprising that they are mentioned neither in our article nor in the sources used to build it, and quite astonishing that the IP who knows so much about them has not mentioned even one of them by name.
Oh, and since most notable members of this family were in fact called Zorzi, would it not make sense to move the page to that title? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hmm, it turns out that we already have a page on this family at that title; I've proposed a merge – see Talk:Zorzi#Proposed merge with Giorgi family. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:57, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Zorzi is the translation in Venetian dialect of Giorgi. The family is the same but the Zorzi branch was not part of the Dubrovnik nobility, the Giorgi (Durdevic, which is the Croatian translation of Giorgi, were. Please don't merge the pages. The Zorzi were incredibly important in Venice, the Giorgi in Dubrovnik. They are part of the same family but developed independent importance in two different countries (the Republic of Venice and the Republic of Ragusa). If you look at the list of Dubrovnik nobility you will find the Durdevic (Giorgi) and not the Zorzi. So we should keep two distinct (yet connected) pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.27.229.242 (talk) 17:06, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Apart from Marino Zorzi, who is already notable you have several Governors and Rectors of the Republic of Ragusa including
- Giovanni de Giorgi (?–?), Governor of the Republic of Ragusa (1281–83).[1]
- Matteo de Giorgi (1329–1400), Rector of the Republic of Ragusa (1372–73, 1377–78, 1380–81).[2]
- Simone de Giorgi (?–?), Rector of the Republic of Ragusa (1806–08) before the unification with the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy.
- Savino de Giorgi (?–?), Intendant of France for Croatia (1810–11),[3] last Rector of the Republic of Ragusa (18–29 January 1814).
- Nicolas de Giorgi (?–?), Chamberlain of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine and Ambassador of the Austrian Empire to the United States (1864–67)
Please stop saying things that are not true and don't merge pages about families that have long and complex history. You have to understand the complexity. Things are not white or black. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.27.229.242 (talk) 17:13, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
The Zorzi are not part of the Duborvnik nobility as the Giorgi are. The Giorgi are a dynasty that ruled for centuries in Dubrovnik (as part of the patriciate of the country in various roles). The Zorzi didn't. They have a common ancestor but they are two separate, yet connected families. Don't mix things up and don't merge the pages. History is complex to understand, don't oversimplify it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.27.229.242 (talk) 17:38, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well, none of those are "rulers" in any dynastic sense (i.e., they are not hereditary); and worldstatesmen.org is patently not a reliable source. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:40, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- Justlettersandnumbers you are being not neutral on purpose, I'm afraid. Please refer to the definition of Wikipedia of what a dynasty is: "A dynasty (UK: /ˈdɪnəsti/, US: /ˈdaɪnəsti/) is a sequence of rulers from the same family,[1] usually in the context of a feudal or monarchical system, but sometimes also appearing in elective republics." I don't think there is anything else to say. You are, on purpose, finding a problem when there isn't one. I don't know why but this is not professional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.26.228.170 (talk) 06:43, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- We ask editors to show good faith and you aren't. You're clearly using a number of IP addresses to edit as you're on a dynamic IP which makes it hard to talk to you on your talk page. However, if you continue to remove maintenance templates, eg the merge template, you'll be blocked (we can block the IP range). As for "House" or "Dynasty", we can't make that determination ourselves no matter what the definitions say, as that is original research and thus forbidden. We need academic sources. Doug Weller talk 10:03, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Doug Weller I am in good faith too. I operate from several IP addresses because I simply don't want to set up a Wikipedia account. I think that is within my rights. Not having a Wikipedia account doesn't make me automatically in bad faith! If we can't reply on the definition of another Wikipedia page then maybe nothing is really reliable. We should be coherent. Also, if you look even further up in this discussion you can see that Justlettersandnumbers accused me of something completely untrue, namely: So, which members the family have "ruled" anything? Marin Zorzi was Doge of Venice for ten months; who else? Because if there are other significant rulers it is more than a little surprising that they are mentioned neither in our article nor in the sources used to build it, and quite astonishing that the IP who knows so much about them has not mentioned even one of them by name. Oh, and since most notable members of this family were in fact called Zorzi, would it not make sense to move the page to that title?. I mentioned them, just a few tostart with, because I am in good faith and truly working to make this page complete and not based on the personal views of a user who doesn't want to accept other people's views nor learn new things about a topic he clearly doesn't know or has done enough research on. I would like to know why this user hates so much this family and this page to the extent of not accepting that sometimes he is wrong. Nothing can be changed, not even the description of a picture, unless he does it. That is, for me, difficult to accept and transforms the page in the user's "personal" page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.26.228.170 (talk) 10:39, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Doug Weller You are accusing me of being in bad faith for no good reason. Not having a Wikipedia account is obviously not enough to accuse someone of not being in bad faith. You can easily talk to me just like you are doing now. What is your point? If Justlettersandnumbers wanted to talk to me he could interacted just like you are doing now. Instead he prefers (see above) writing down inaccurate things and making changes that make no sense and trying to merge pages that deal with two different subjects. Also, he repeatedly ignored my comments instead of discussing about it and understanding my points. There is clearly no interest in hearing what others have to say on the same subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.26.228.170 (talk) 14:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
Notable members
editWhy are the following notable members of the family not added to the article and repeatedly canceled by some users for no good reason?
- Giovanni de Giorgi (?–?), Governor of the Republic of Ragusa (1281–83).[1]
- Matteo de Giorgi (1329–1400), Rector of the Republic of Ragusa (1372–73, 1377–78, 1380–81).[2]
- Simone de Giorgi (?–?), Rector of the Republic of Ragusa (1806–08) before the unification with the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy.
- Savino de Giorgi (?–?), Intendant of France for Croatia (1810–11),[3] last Rector of the Republic of Ragusa (18–29 January 1814).
- Nicolas de Giorgi (?–?), Chamberlain of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine and Ambassador of the Austrian Empire to the United States (1864–67) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.27.229.242 (talk) 17:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)