Talk:Giovanni Cernogoraz

Nationality

Again another querrel seems to start without any reason. Dual nationality is a relevent fact and can be reported in the article. Additionally, this has been sources appropriately in the article. Giovanni Cernogaraz competes for Croatia, there is no contest about that. But he is dual national Croatian/Italian and also this is a fact. I do not understand why users 78.0.192.105 and 93.139.7.195 are insisting in removing the edits but clearly if they will insists I will ask an administrator to take action. Those accounts have been newly created and are likely to be socks of previously banned users. --Silvio1973 (talk) 09:33, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

The Repubblica article is the only source I can find to confirm this so far: it's a reliable source, but more are needed. Lone boatman (talk) 10:07, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

If it is true, it can be reported in article, but now almost half of article about one sportsmen, Olympic champion and European champion, is about his Italian ethnicity. Also, every single word about that is written in last few hours, so after he won Olympic gold, which is really pity. And if you know that all Italians would be happy if he lost in finals, as silver medal was taken by Italian Fabbrizi, than it is funny and pity. 88.207.8.149 (talk) 10:45, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

A user has modified the article adding Giovanni Cernogoraz as being "Italian shooter". Let's be very clear. This guy has two nationalities but compete exclusively for Croatia. I ask all contributors to be reasonable and not to push any POV on an article of such moderate importance. Also I start to believe that we need to semi-protect the article. This is very sad but looks the only way to reduce all the on-going edit warring. --Silvio1973 (talk) 07:19, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, but I agree about being very clear: a person with the italian citizenship/italian passport it's an Italian. An Italian who shoots is, unquestionably, an Italian shooter. He can also be anything else, French, German, Australian, I don't care, but he's still an Italian shooter. An Italian who writes is an "Italian writer", an Italian who drives is an "Italian driver", an Italian who shoots is a "Italian shooter". No one has added him to the Category:Olympic gold medalists for Italy, because it is not true, but please don't remove another category entirely relevant. --Felisopus (talk) 12:33, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Let's see if I manage to convince that you are wrong. Let's take a writer that has both the Italian and the French nationality and let's imagine he write exclusively in French. He is a French writer with both nationalities. Now, Giovanni Cernogoraz is a shooter and he shots exclusively for Croatia but he has two nationalities. So he is a Croatian shooter and he has both nationalities. Anything more than that would be pushing a POV, because Cernogoraz is a Croatian of Italian ethnicity, he's not Italian athlete. --Silvio1973 (talk) 13:28, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I still think that I'm right: you're saying that to be "Italian" a person must do "italian things", live in Italy, "work for" Italy and so on. This may make sense for a biography from '700, not now. In 2012 being Italian it's a legal thing, first and foremost a legal thing, an Italian is who has the italian citizenship by the law: not by debates about identity, language, ethnicity, etc (and also about this topic the interviews are pretty clear ...). Then, the Category:Italian sport shooters is totally relevant and reasonable. --Felisopus (talk) 12:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

93.139.27.77

Can an administrator take action against this user? I am trying to put water on the fire and make this section about ethnicity (and similar crap) smaller but there are a number of freshly newly created users that continue vandalising the page. --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Also, I would really like to not be wrongly interpreted. We all know he is Italian by ethnicity and Croatian newspapers reported that his parents celebrated gold medal in some society of Italian minority. The reason why Croatian newspapers don't repeat that over and over again, is because talking about someones ethnicity in Croatia is considered as Croatian national chauvinism and it is unpopular. I don't have anything against reporting his ethnicity (and his dual citizenship, if it is true) in article, but for article of this size, one word would be more than enough. 88.207.8.149 (talk) 10:54, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

And now translation of his name that "proves" he is "italianized" Croatian. Just great. Stop this crap. 88.207.8.149 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:57, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I think all these explanations about nationality needs to be shortened. As it is now it is absolutely inappropriate, redundant and useless. I do not want to see an article about an athlete of a minor sport getting a conflict against opposite nationalisms. I am going to propose a shorter version of this, let's hope we get some consensus about it. Also this explanation about the surname it's also useless, we are speaking just of an athlete not of a a famous painter or artist. --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:02, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with 88.207.8.149. This page wouldn't even exist if he hadn't won a medal, it would barely exist if he had won silver or bronze, but after he defeated Italian in the gold medal shoot-off half of the page is about his ethnicity. Really sad to see something like this. Qwe144 (talk) 11:04, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

OK enough is enough. I am filing a request to block user 93.139.27.77. By the way, I do not understand this whole mess. In Italy there are plenty od athletes of both Austrian ethnicity and Italian nationality and this does not bother anyone. Honestly I hope the most of Croats have a different attitude towards minorities than user 93.139.27.77. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to fellow Croatians

Please stop with fighting right now! Current state of article is moderate. It is really disrespectful towards our Olympic champion to vandalize his page and to fight about his ethnicity. He is Italian from Croatia and we love him! 88.207.8.149 (talk) 12:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with this. The lead should summarize the article. As such, dual citizenship should be mentioned in the lead. Ryan Vesey 02:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I have protected the page because of the disruptive editing by one person using multiple IPs. I would appreciate it if whatever is decided here as to content is done through consensus, not through warring (this is not directed at Ryan). Also, it would be even nicer if any added content is written and formatted properly. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:49, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

equality

Why Armin Zöggeler, Isolde Kostner (...) are not austrians by nationality on english wikipedia? Cernogoraz is Croatian Chakavian surname! 93.139.27.77 (talk) 12:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

If you can find reliable sources showing that they have Austrian nationality, then please add that information to those articles. Thanks, Lone boatman (talk) 12:31, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Unlogged IP 93.139.27.77, in Italy all minorities including the German speaking minority of Sud-Tyrol are respected and not persecuted. Some of the people of this ethnic group are dual nationals, others are not. If you have any information about athletes from South-Tyrol about their dual nationality you are invited to add this information in the relevant article. Indeed it looks that your only objective is to "contribute" on Wikipedia for the unique purpose of nationalism propaganda and provocation. Perhaps you are just a previously banned user. You might think that you serve your country with such behaviour, indeed it's just the opposite. Don't worry, your edits will be reverted, without fail. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

So then, please edit Armin Zöggeler, Isolde Kostner wiki page, leave croatian athlete alone! 93.139.27.77 (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Please don't remove content from an article if it's supported by references from reliable sources. Lone boatman (talk) 13:18, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Suggested lead

I suggest this for the lead "Giovanni Cernogoraz (born 27 December 1982 in Koper) is a sports shooter of dual Croatian and Italian citizenship. He competes in shotgun events for Croatia and won the Olympic gold medal in men's trap at the 2012 Summer Olympic Games in London." Ryan Vesey 02:57, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't really see the need to emphasize that he has Italian citizenship in the lead. He competes for Croatia, never competed for Italy, the fact he holds Italian citizenship is mentioned in the personal life section and also stated in infobox (with a gazillion references). The edits in this article focus too much on Croatian-Italian whining instead of his accomplishments in the sport he's competing. Dr. Vicodine (talk) 06:50, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

The dual nationality need to be reported but it is inappropriate to focus too much on it. And when I mean it is inappropriate I include also to this explanation about the surname. This indirectly extend this stupid discussion about his ethnic origin. At the end of the day this is just an athlete, not a major scientist or writer, let's not focus too much on his ancestor, ethnicity and origin. --Silvio1973 (talk) 08:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Again, why should it be reported really? Apart from mentioning it in the infobox and maybe adding a sentence in the "personal life section" I don't see any relevance of that piece of information for his notability. For all we know he probably holds Slovenian citizenship as well, being born in Koper. Does that make him Slovenian? Probably. Is that relevant? Not really. There are thousands of sportspeople with 2 or 3 citizenships and we usually do not feel the need to explain why they compete for the country they chose. We might mention it in the infobox and offer a short explanation if the person's particular citizenship circumstances are unusual. And i don't see why we should make an exception to that rule in an article about a guy who has lived in Croatia almost his entire life, is a citizen of Croatia, has always been a member of Croatian clubs, is sponsored by the Croatian Olympic Committee, represents Croatia internationally, and has plans to get a job with the Croatian Army. I mean, how likely is it that somebody is going to look at his biography and go "How come he does not compete for Italy?". So please stop the nonsense. Timbouctou (talk) 10:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

And btw what kind of an explanation is "At the press conference in Olympics, he explained that he competes for Croatia because he started training in a Croatian shooting range and after he has not changed sports federation."? What does that even mean? Why should he switch sports federations? Did he ever have plans to do so? Was he ever contacted by Italy? Did he contact them? Do all members of ethnic minorities need a special explanation as to why they are not competing for countries they never lived in nor were born in? This is idiotic. Timbouctou (talk) 10:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

On the topic of his Italian citizenship. Once someone is notable, we write about their entire biography. Sure, having Italian and Croatian citizenship doesn't make someone notable; however, it is a fairly important part of their biography. The lead is meant to summarize the topic and reading the lead should give you an adequate understanding of the topic even if you stopped reading at that point. If someone read the lead and left without knowing he had Italian citizenship as well, I don't feel we would be adequately covering it. Ryan Vesey 12:33, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Why is having dual citizenships a "fairly important part of their biography"? Like I said there are thousands of articles about sportspeople on Wikipedia who hold 2 or more citizenships and very rarely is this blown out of proportion as it is here. What makes you think that the fact that he holds a Italian passport is a piece of information required for an "adequate understanding of the topic"? He is a Croatian sports shooter who won Olympic gold. Sounds just about adequate. Btw neither the present nor the proposed lede mention that he holds Slovenian citizenship as well. Timbouctou (talk) 15:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I really don't understand the problem about the "explanation": there are several interviews and are quite clear. Why an Italian can't explain the reason why he is in a Croatian team to the press? Isn't important for an athlete? I repeat: being a member of a "ethnic minority" is different from being a citizen (also) of another country. Quite different. --Felisopus (talk) 13:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

So I suppose Italian press is equally keen on asking sportspeople from German-speaking areas of Italy how come they do not represent Austria? And I suppose putting in "well, I just never got around to switch clubs" would greatly enhance all Wikipedia articles on them? Timbouctou (talk) 15:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

What part of "he is an Italian citizen" is hard to understand? Or is it an attempt to ignore this thing? And it's really hard to distinguish between a person who speaks German and a person who is an Austrian citizen, which can obviously compete for Austria? --Felisopus (talk) 16:00, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

What part of how is his citizenship relevant don't you understand? And how come it is only his Italian passport you are obsessed with, but not the Slovenian one? Timbouctou (talk) 16:26, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

If there is consensus, I agree with the incipit "Giovanni Cernogoraz (born 27 December 1982 in Koper) is a sports shooter of dual Croatian and Italian citizenship." or "Giovanni Cernogoraz (born 27 December 1982 in Koper) is a Croatian sports shooter with Italian citizenship." It's exactly the same expression of it.wiki (Giovanni Cernogoraz (Capodistria, 27 dicembre 1982) è un tiratore croato con cittadinanza italiana.) that I wrote following the guidelines. --Felisopus (talk) 13:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem with either of those; however, I feel that the second should state "dual Italian" if we used it. Otherwise it might seem like he shoots for Croatia while only having Italian citizenship. Ryan Vesey 13:13, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Jesus H. Christ, the entire article without the lead has thirteen sentences. It is mentioned in the personal life section that he has Italian citizenship, that's enough. This entire thing is coming from Italian press who consider him de facto Italian, nobody else cares about his Italian citizenship. That press conference nonsense coming from a question from Italian reporters should be removed, replaced with something that makes sense and belongs there, like that he works at his father's restaurant, is married and has two kids. Dr. Vicodine (talk) 13:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Really who cares about his hobbies? Does it make any sense here and if in one year he starts gardening what do we do? We update his hobbies? Reporting the dual nationality it's enough. From my perspective all the rest (including this reference to the shooting range where he started shooting) it's absolutely unrelevant and adds nothing to the article. Should I remind to all contributors this is an Encyclopedia not a receptacle of everything is said on the Web and or the media? --Silvio1973 (talk) 14:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

FYI his hobbies are reported at his profile page at the International Shooting Sport Federation website - you know, the people who govern the sport he competes in. His dual nationality isn't. And there's no mention of dual nationality at Sports-Reference.com or the official London2012.com profile either. It seems only the Italian press and (Italian) wikipedians are kind of obsessed about it. Timbouctou (talk) 15:24, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

It's an attempt to deny that he is an Italian citizen? Or is it just a list of sports sites that obviously show only his team, and nothing else? Please stop immediately to write any silly comments about contributors and their nationality: these are personal attacks and this is my only and last warning. However, here an example of an "non-italian" (sic) news about this topic. --Felisopus (talk) 16:15, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll make it clear that I have no Italian or Croatian heritage. Ryan Vesey 16:18, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Hahahahahah. I said you were Italian and you got offended? Not very patriotic of you is it :-) Anyway, accusing ISSF, or the 2012 London Olympics, or Sports-Reference.com of conspiracy to "deny that he is an Italian citizen" is laughable at best. Last I checked we do not get to decide what is considered "adequate information" about a subject - reliable sources do. And it seems not that many sources outside Italian newspapers thinks his dual nationality is even worth reporting. That is a fact and you should learn to live with it. Cheers. Timbouctou (talk) 16:21, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• Note that an RfC on the general topic is taking place at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section#Citizenship. Ryan Vesey 16:24, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Categories

Currently Cernogoraz is listed as belonging to:

• Category:Croatian people of Italian descent (which probably means his ancestors are Italian)
• Category:Italians of Croatia (which means he is an ethnic Italian living in Croatia)
• Category:Istrian Italian people (which is a subset of above, meaning he lives in Istria, where 99% Italians in Croatia live)

And now User:Felisopus insists on including Cernogoraz into the Category:Italian sport shooters, in spite the fact the guy never represented Italy at any level and is not listed as such by any reliable source. Can we cease with the nonsense please? Cernogoraz is an Italian shooter as much as Barack Obama is a Kenyan politician. Timbouctou (talk) 16:36, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

If you're really serious about writing these things, please share immediately the source that shows that Barack Obama is a Kenyan citizen. Until you have a similar source, this remains only a disruptive comment, and Giovanni Cernogoraz an Italian, a shooter, then an "Italian shooter". --Felisopus (talk) 16:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Can you point to a source saying "Giovanni Cernogoraz is an Italian shooter"? Timbouctou (talk) 16:43, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

All major Italian newspapers say that he is Italian, an Italian citizenship with an Italian passport, and you want to ignore them? --Felisopus (talk) 17:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

The fact that he has Italian citizenship and that he is a sports shooter doesn't make him Italian sport shooter. Dr. Vicodine (talk) 17:24, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely, there is only one small question: why? Because it's hard to deny that an Italian is an Italian. And even denying his statements. --Felisopus (talk) 17:31, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

An "Italian shooter" is a person representing the country of Italy in sports shooting. Does Cernogoraz fit the bill? Timbouctou (talk) 17:49, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Of the three you mentioned earlier, he should only be in Category:Istrian Italian people. Istrian Italian people is a subcategory of Italians of Croatia which is a subset of Croatian people of Italian descent. We choose the more specific category when possible and don't include the less specific categories. Italian sports shooters is questionable. The category should really define it's scope, but it doesn't. Ryan Vesey 16:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Does the "Istrian Italians" category refer to Italians living in Slovene part of Istria (Koper, for instance) or not? If so, then it is a bit imprecise. If on the other hand, the category "Istrian Italians" is a subset of "Italians of Croatia" and the two are nearly synonymous as, nearly all Italians of Croatia live in Istria - should the two articles perhaps be merged?--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:51, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

There are Dalmatian Italians though, a practically non-existent group which is of special interest to Italian editors. Although your proposition is commonsensical in terms of practicality, Wikipedia often takes other routes. In any case, people should start writing category descriptions in category pages to avoid this sort of discussions. Timbouctou (talk) 16:58, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Isn't more sensible to include him only in the category Category:Italians of Croatia? However I agree that he is not an Italian shooter. I tried to convince Felisopus, but I was unsuccesful. BTW Category:Istrian Italian people is not a subset of Category:Italians of Croatia because there are Italians living in Istria but not in Croatia. --Silvio1973 (talk) 20:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

In any case Category:Croatian people of Italian descent is excessive as he is already placed in Category:Italians of Croatia and Category:Istrian Italian people as I assume it would be impossible for him to be an "Italian in Croatia" without having Italian ancestry. As for "Italian shooter" it is just WP:OR. Timbouctou (talk) 22:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring

One more reversion and the article will be fully protected. I pointed out above that the article content must be changed through consensus, not warring. Also, focus on content, not on personal issues.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

User:Filiposus has already violated WP:3RR ([1], [2], [3]), after being warned to stop warring in diff summaries twice ([4], [5]) and in his talk page [6]. Should I file a formal report? Timbouctou (talk) 17:47, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

It's true that Felisopus has been the worst offender in terms of number of reversions (six, counting the first change after I semi-protected the article). You now have 3 reverts. It appears that Felisopus's last reversion occurred after the warning on his Talk page. Still, I am inclined to cut him and you some slack if you will settle down and work together, along with the other editors who are trying to help achieve consensus on the citizenship and category issues. Therefore, my advice is not to file a report, even though you may think that unfair. Recognize that if the article is fully protected, it will be done so in whatever condition it is in at that moment, barring some policy violation.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

@ Silvio1973 and wiki admins Why would it be inappropriate mentioning the origin of his surname in an article which is mentioning his origins?--203.25.149.10 (talk) 02:53, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Because it pushes a POV, because in the actual state it is not supported by a source and because it creates additional mess (and we do not need it). In order to give you a more organic answer: link the meaning of the surname to the origins is per se a truly wrong and dangerous exercise unless you are not able to track and explain adequately the full genealogy of the person. Example: Nicolas Sarkozy, it is fine to link his name to his Hungarian origins because this can be tracked and sourced appropriately. --Silvio1973 (talk) 07:26, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

But this etymology isn't just folk etymology that could be "truly wrong and dangerous exercise", it's a piece of folk etymology that's supported by the surname carrier. It's not a POV that is intended to slight the living person, which in turn is WP:BLP violation, and it's not a slight to anyone else - at least I don't see how it could be. If he thinks it means Crnogorac, that doesn't mean anything much for other eponymous people. Indeed, the sentence

In an interview to Glas Istre newspapers he said that he doesn't know the origin of his surname, Cernogoraz, but thinks is Montenegrin.<ref name="glasistre"/>

...was very much a NPOV way of conveying that. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Useless edits

Clearly there are people that have nothing to do of their days. May I suggest to do it elsewhere than in Wikipedia? Please, this is not a tabloid where to write that this athlete hopes to work in the Army or not, about his hobbies. Do you realise this is an encyclopedia and not a newspaper? It is absolutely unrelevant where Giovanni Cernogoraz wants to work and what are his hopes. We are not going to report in this article any crap that it's written or broadcoasted by the media. Clearly Wikipedia it's not there for this. --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:23, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The issue of Cernogoraz's employment attracted attention by all major Croatian media - not tabloids, as it is implied. It is reasonably relevant for his biography, in the "Personal life" section.

Also, let's not introduce double standards of "importance". Why would this be important, for example:

At the press conference in Olympics, he explained that he competes for Croatia after he started training in a Croatian shooting range.

He is a Croatian citizen, lives in Croatia, and competes for a Croatian club, so this "explanation" seems odd. He has been extensively training in Italy too, and that piece of context is missing from the article. Note I'm not really complaining here, just showing that "unimportant" and "irrelevant" seems to be rather subjective. GregorB (talk) 16:50, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The article does not explain why he would need a reason not to compete for Croatia in the first place - and then answers the non-existent question by basically saying "Oh and btw the person from X who lives in X - competes for X because he started training in X". And that sentence - which has zero informative value - is supported by no less than five (5) references. Timbouctou (talk) 17:05, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

This discussion is increasingly interesting: "double standards", but also "double logic". There are two facts: A (employment) and B (federation choice): A has obviously attracted attention by all major Croatian media, B ok, can be, maybe also attracted attention by all major Italian media (which typically reach only 10-12 times more people than the Croatian media) but, i don't know, seems odd. After all, perhaps the choice of the team is important for an athlete? Details, who cares?

But also: come on, he's croatian, (damn! was not born in Croatia) he lives in Croatia, obviously he competes for Croatia. It's reasonable, i agree: he's italian, he speaks italian, he lives in an Italian community, he has an Italian passport, it's obvious that he competes for Ital.. sorry, no, why an Italian competes for Croatia? I don't have many Italian friends competing for Croatia. Maybe it's not so obvious. Really odd, why all these journalists have asked about non-existent questions? Why all the media talk about? And maybe in the most important public event of his life. I have no problem with people with dual citizenship, I hope you too. --Felisopus (talk) 18:17, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Of course not. As I stated, I don't have a problem with the mention of his citizenship or the way he picked the country to compete for. I'm merely making a point that turnabout is fair play: if one chooses to nitpick about something, someone else might be equally justified in nitpicking about something else. That's not the way to go. As I already said to Silvio: I'm fairly happy with the article as it currently stands - let's provide the facts for the benefit of the reader. GregorB (talk) 19:14, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

There are two problems here - the first one is that it is not that unusual for a member of an ethnic minority to compete for their country of residence regardless of extra passports they might carry. It is quite common. And if it is quite common, why do we pretend it is not? The other issue is that even if one feels this needs explaining, the over-referenced sentence does not do the job. Where would you normally expect a guy living in Croatia to do his sports training? Timbouctou (talk) 00:56, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Normally, it is not unusual. But it happens that Cernogoraz did his Olympic preparation in Padua (apparently because Croatia lacked facilities), at his own expense (could not get full financial support at home) and that raises the question - at least from the Italian perspective - why does he bother competing for Croatia then? Given proper context, this question does not sound so unnatural. Here is an excellent in-depth source on Cernogoraz: "Priča o prvaku: Novi heroj nacije vlasnik prvog hrvatskog streljačkog zlata u povijesti olimpizma" (in Croatian).

When I said I was "fairly happy" with the article, I meant that POV-wise, it can't be seriously faulted, but I wish it had more depth in order to make complex issues around his choice of federation clearer. While I wouldn't want this to turn into a WP:UNDUE tractate, I always thought that a thoroughly explained issue will attract less, rather than more bad POV edits, which is the main hazard for this article at the moment. GregorB (talk) 13:56, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Well I wouldn't mind having more context explaining his training arrangements and career path since they certainly sound unusual (so he was born in Koper in present-day Slovenia, lives in Novigrad in Croatia; he prepared for the Olympics in Padua in Italy, although he is a member of a sports club in Velika Gorica which is half way round the country, etc). The half-baked sentence we have now is useless. Timbouctou (talk) 23:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree with you fully on the "half-baked sentence". To a degree, sources suffer from it too: the already mentioned hrsport.net source (just added it to the External links section), as good as it is, doesn't say a word on his ethnic background or dual citizenship. Anyway: the article is quite alright, and once the page hits drop off a bit (I guess they have dropped already), bad edits will cease to be a problem. GregorB (talk) 00:51, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Categories

The contested categories are:

1. Category:Italian sport shooters
2. Category:Croatian people of Italian descent
3. Category:Italians of Croatia

Now, #2 and #3 are both valid and sourced, and I don't think there could be a reasonable objection to them.

With #1 it is a bit tricky: it all depends whether "Italian" is construed in terms of citizenship or ethnicity. This is not a straightforward issue. For some occupations citizenship takes precedence (sportspeople and politicians in particular - it makes little sense to say someone is e.g. "Italian politician" if he's not active in the Italian political system). Still, many Croatian sportspeople who competed for Yugoslavia and never competed for Croatia are categorized under Category:Croatian sportspeople (although, Yugoslavia being a federal state, this is a slightly different case - c.f. Category:Scottish sportspeople), so I'm not sure what is the correct way to approach it. GregorB (talk) 11:26, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Uros Vico, Dragan Travica, Abdon Pamich (Pamić) , Goran Fiorentini, Danijel Premuš (Croatia squad – 2004 Summer Olympics ).... none of them nor the Croatian athlete?--Sokac121 (talk) 11:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT (if you think it's wrong - Premuš competed for the Croatian national team, so at least that one is clear). Or are you arguing that, say, Mate Parlov, should be removed from Category:Croatian boxers? That put aside, why did you remove the other two categories from the article? GregorB (talk) 11:47, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Because these are duplicate categories Category: Italians of Croatia-> Istrian Italian people‎->Croatian people of Italian descent.--Sokac121 (talk) 12:00, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay, looks like a good call. It would have been easier had you provided an edit summary, especially given the fact that, strictly speaking, Istrian Italian people might also be Italians of Slovenia. GregorB (talk) 12:06, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I entered explanation but Silvio is not--Sokac121 (talk) 12:11, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Right - my apologies, I guess it didn't register with me somehow... GregorB (talk) 12:15, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

For consistency, feel free to add the relevant category (Croatian sportspeople) if these people have or have had Croatian citizenship. Don't feel free to remove similar categories from the other biographies. Interesting fact: in many of these biographies there are plenty of "dual citizenship", "Croatian-born" and so on, even in the lead section, while in this article it's "forbidden". --Felisopus (talk) 11:56, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

IMO, "Croatian-born" in the lead is wrong, unless the person in question competed for Croatia before switching allegiance to another country. GregorB (talk) 12:02, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Felisopus if you know how to get citizenship (in Croatia)? Italy is divided half of Istria citizenship, although some people have no connection with Italy--Sokac121 (talk) 12:08, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

It's high time to remove "Italian sport shooters" category I think. For example, Danijel Premuš (Italian water polo player, London 2012 silver medalists) has only "Italian water polo players" category ever though he was born in Croatia (city of Rijeka), has dual citizenship and even represented Croatia at the 2004 Summer Olympics (!?). Still there is no "Croatian water polo players" category at that particular page.
But let's not look just at Italian-Croatian "affairs". For example Laura Bechtolsheimer, British dressage rider does not have category "German equestrians" although she was born in Germany in German family. Still, German users (and IP users) are not changing that even though Great Britain stopped 36 year German winning streak in Olympic team dressage (Laura was part of British team), that must have hurt much more than losing trap gold in shoot-off. But Germans are not changing her categories, nationalities etc.
So, I think "Italian sports shooters" category should be removed because Cernogoraz never represented Italy at any level (just like Laura Bechtolsheimer has never represented Germany at any level), he has never joined any Italian shooting club either, so removing concerned category will be correct in my opinion. It is really stupid to have war over Cernogoraz's page, hopefully Giovanni Cernogoraz himself hasn't read this article or "View history" page. Qwe144 (talk) 20:12, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Would you, per the above discussion, remove Mate Parlov from Category:Croatian boxers? If not, why? GregorB (talk) 20:33, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not informed enough about Mate Parlov to be able to judge about concerned issue. Qwe144 (talk) 21:03, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Parlov was a Croat, but competed for Yugoslavia (like countless other Croatian sportspeople of his era - I've randomly picked him as an example). The point here is: is it ever OK to put someone in Foolandian sportspeople if the person in question never competed for Fooland. In his case, I'd say it is (Croatian:Yugoslav :: Scottish:British - kind of), and if you agree, that would be inconsistent with (and therefore effectively kill) your argument ("should be removed because Cernogoraz never represented Italy at any level"). GregorB (talk) 00:27, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, it is a different case. The thing is that Yugoslavia is former country and that Croatia is one of the Yugoslavia's successors. It is the simlair case with Lyudmila Bragina, Janis Lusis and Jarmila Kratochvilova, in those cases there are two categories (e.g. "Soviet athletes" category and "Russian athletes" category). In Cernogoraz's case we are not talking about former countries. Also, the two concerned countries (Italy and Croatia) are not successors of a certain country (at least in recent history). Qwe144 (talk) 07:14, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Yet it seems clear: Feel free to add the relevant category (Croatian sportspeople) if these people have or have had Croatian citizenship. It takes less time than keep writing stupid provocations like that must have hurt much more than losing trap gold in shoot-off in the Giovanni Cernogoraz article's talk page. On it.wiki this category is already present because nobody has problems with dual citizenship. --Felisopus (talk) 20:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry if you find that must have hurt much more than losing trap gold in shoot-off provocative, but it seems that a fact that Cernogoraz defeated Italian in the gold medal shoot-off is reason why are some users editting this page.
But let's look at Bechtolsheimer case again (it is better to look at something not concerning Italy and Croatia). She was born in Germany, in German family, she speaks German, she lives most of her life in Great Britain. Altogether, the situation about her is pretty much simlair to Cernogoraz's situation, if not "clearer". Considering all the events which took place at this article in the last week or so, I think all those facts about Laura Bechtolsheimer would be enough (for some users like those who are active on this page in the past few days) to change her article inside out. But nobody is changing that. She never represented Germany at any level so changing/adding categories like "German equestrians" seems to be disrespectful to the athlete concerned so that is why nobody is doing that.
About Danijel Premuš, I was talking about English page. Qwe144 (talk) 21:03, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

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