Talk:Giunti (printers)

Article name

the article is currently called Filippo Giunti; I suggest renaming and redirecting it to Filippo and Bernardo Giunti since there are now two sets of birth and death dates.--FeanorStar7 (talk) 11:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

seven years later, @FeanorStar7: This is a joint biography in name only and the text covers the Giuntine presses collectively as much as it does the Florentine press of Filippo and Bernardo Giunti. Giuntine press redirects here and I wonder whether the page name should be that or something similar.

P.S. Some time ago I "completed" the personal redirects Filippo Giunti and Bernardo Giunti, partly by export from this page, and I created redirect Lucantonio Giunta for the earlier founder of the Venetian press. If this article is renamed impersonally, then more people categories should be moved to the redirects. --P64 (talk) 15:14, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

All three interlanguage targets cover the Giunti press(es). I find no coverage at IT.wiki that should evidently be linked (i don't read Italian). Wikidata is fouled by the variation. --P64 (talk) 16:03, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't fully understand where P64 is coming from, but that may well be my fault. What I think fouls up this bit of Wikipedia is that if I need to know about Luca Antonio Giunta (sic) - as i currently do - for example the University of California music incunabula catlaogue has him in Venice in 1494, employing the first of music printers in the modern sense, Johan Emerich of Speier (which simple statement hints at a complex of unanswered questions) - the alleged redirection offers no help at all, since the result of this particular bout of Wikipedian navel gazing leaves him - or his kin - attempting to monopolize Florentine music printing, and leaves his Venetian activities unmentioned. If I could unfoul it myself, I would, but I am simply trying to USE this pedia in this context. HELP!Delahays (talk) 13:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

@Delahays: If you know a better English Wikipedia target for the redirect Lucantonio Giunta, please tell me and I will re-target. You say "navel gazing" but the redirection implies that English Wikipedia has no better target, which is my June 2012 assessment.

Simlilarly I put the "Luca-antonio Giunta" and "Heredi di Lucantonio Giunta" Library of Congress links on this page because I did not find a better page at EN.wiki.

I did not find this person any way at Italian Wikipedia. See my contemporary notes below (outdented). --P64 (talk) 01:09, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

P.S. I created the entire section Giuntine press#External links in this article, where 3 of 6 listings pertain to Luc rather than Fil/Phi or Ber. That was another reason to redirect Lucantonio Giunta to this page; the links may be useful to someone and we have no other page where they may better be located. Note that "Lucantonio Giunta" and "Luca-antonio Giunta" are the name versions used by the Met and LC. --P64 (talk) 21:38, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

@Delahays: I recommend reading the relevant sections of Mary Kay Duggans thesis on Italian Music Incunabula (free online at University of California Press or Google Books). How good is your Italian? There is an article on Lucantonio Giunti il Vecchio in the Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani, also availiable online. The same is true for Johann Emerich. --HHill (talk) 15:52, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

This page has been on my watchlist for a while; I'm glad to see some discussion of how to improve it (so thank you, Delahays!). My suggestion: move it to Giunti family, and cover the various members of the family and their activities, whether as publisher, printer or bookseller, in Florence, Venice, France or Spain, in roughly chronological order (rather as has been partly, but not well or fully, done at Pazzi family and Landi family). I believe that this would give a clearer picture than covering the various presses of the family one by one. There's no shortage of sources, though many of them seem to repeat the same few facts; this doctoral thesis seems at first glance to have useful information and useful sources. Unless there are objections here, I'll probably start on this in a day or two; would anyone object if I changed the referencing system to list-defined at the same time? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:03, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I have a strong preference in favor of section heading References followed by {{reflist|25em|refs= [...] }} . But I am not really here substantially. I have worked on the pages for early printers only because they are joint biographies in some sense (structure, name, categories, authority control) which is more appropriate or less appropriate with great variation. At least three other articles:

• Andrew Crooke and William Cooke
• John and Richard Marriot
• Arnold Pannartz and Konrad Sweynheim

somewhat similar

• Leopold and Rudolf Blaschka
• Inger and Johannes Exner

to be continued --P64 (talk) 21:59, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, those are list-defined references. The problem with having this page as a joint biography of two of the Giunti is that it leaves nowhere to cover all the others. The family tree on page 336 of this article (JSTOR access needed) shows thirty-one, almost all of whom were, it seems, active in the book trade. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:19, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I prefer but don't consider my preference weighty. -P64

... (200 minutes later) Formally I removed this from the joint biographies in June. That is, I removed Filippo Giunti and Bernardo Giunti from Category:Redirects to joint biographies and I wrote the explanatory note [visit either of those two and "show"] "from first generation to Italian printing firm, named persons not treated biographically". I created Lucantonio Giunta with the same note. Essentially, I approved the interwiki links [left margin] with the German, Hungarian, and Swedish Wikipedia pages.

The other-languages pages make the firm or family or collective primary. Germany de:Giunta (Buchdrucker) mentions Lucantonio and Tommaso first, Filippo and Bernardo second, among 7 redlink family members. The Hungarian hu:Giunti család covers Florence and Venice in long sections 1 and 2, Lyon in short section 3, with numerous boldface family members and no blue- or redlink names. The Swedish is trivial.

I did not find the family or individual members otherwise. French and Italian fr:Giunti Editore and it:Giunti Editore link each other as they feature a modern group (corporation, division, imprint, whatever it is). Both pages includes information about the 15/16c Giuntine presses but they do not support any connection with the modern corporation.

Only now I find French fr:Giunta (imprimeurs) with no inter-language links (and no bluelink people with Giunti or similar surnames). Momentarily I will link that one to this page and its DE HU SV affiliates. ...  Done Even now I don't find a good candidate at IT.wiki (at it:Giunti Editore the only bluelink person with the family name is a 20th century businessman). The named 16th century people are it:Giorgio Vasari and it:Aldo Manuzio.

--P64 (talk) 01:09, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Now the 4 names of interlanguage linked Wikipedia articles are German de:Giunta (Buchdrucker); French fr:Giunta (imprimeurs); Hungarian hu:Giunti család; Swedish sv:Giunta. The first three are substantial articles.

We have the page Giuntine press which redirects here for five years. That name can be used for this article, or a revised version of this article, with help from an administrator (I am not one). Or that page may be developed as a completely new article which makes the history of this page irrelevant (not likely in my offhand opinion). The page Lucantonio Giunta may be developed as a completely new article (easily in my opinion). --P64 (talk) 01:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry about this, but the only suggestion of those I understand above (actually below, but you know what I mean - I'll try and re position this) is the mention of Mary Kay Duggan, and I understand that because I found her myself through trying to solve a problem about Johan Emerich, who worked for Lucantonio Giunta (his normal, however wrongly conceived, appellation, as even the notes to this Wikipedia article have him- this really ought to be given some thought, at least). Look, this is a publisher who just happens to have issued, in 1498, an Italian translation of the Bible, as I understand it, at least. Either I'm wrong - he was after all a major liturgical publisher - or not, in which latter case he's of considerable interest on that ground alone. (addition - HE DID, but it seems in 1490. I may be wrong, but there were parts of Europe where similar publications got their sponsors into rather inconvenient trouble. He seems to have continued as the major provider of the Church's working printed texts.) That's why i went to Wikipedia for him. I'm raising a content issue here, rather than an editing one alone, though not being able to find him was frustrating enough in itself.Delahays (talk) 12:13, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Lucantonio Giunta as publisher of an Italian bible: 1490, 1492 and 1494. Several vernacular bible editions were published in the 15th century. Andrew Pettegree's The book in the renaissance gives a good general overview (cf. e. g. this book review). --HHill (talk) 12:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Justlettersandnumbers: Are you interested in: William Pettas: The Giunti and the Book Trade in Lyon, in: Libri, tipografi, biblioteche. Ricerche storiche dedicate a Luigi Balsamo. I. Olschki, Firenze 1997 (Biblioteca di bibliografia italiana 148), ISBN 88-222-4504-0, pp. 169–192? As the volume is currently in my hands anyway I could scan this paper for you. --HHill (talk) 10:45, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

What a kind offer, HHill! Thank you so much! Yes, I'd very much like to see that article if it's not too much trouble (and it might push me into doing something about this page!). Do you need me to drop you an email so that you can send it to me? Thanks again, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Sent. --HHill (talk) 16:13, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

There are several articles on family members in the Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani: GIUNTI (Giunta), Filippo, il Vecchio, GIUNTI (Giunta), Bernardo, GIUNTI (Giunta), Tommaso, GIUNTI (Giunta), Filippo, il Giovane, GIUNTI (Giunta), Bernardo, GIUNTI (Giunta), Lucantonio, il Giovane. --HHill (talk) 17:34, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, yes, there's plenty of material, too much really. The trick will be to make sense of it and resolve the inconsistencies; I'm not going to try to do that all at once, but I'll do a bit from time to time if I remember. By the way, I'm not sure that I thanked you for sending me the 1997 Pettas article; that was most kind, thank you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:38, 14 January 2016 (UTC)