Talk:Glitch (video game)

Copyright problem removed

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Advert warning removed, article rewritten

Now that the game is shut down, I rewrote the entire article from a more historical perspective. I've removed a few parts that were only relevant to people who were playing the game at the time, such as intricate details about game mechanics, or server announcement chat logs. I think the advert warning no longer applies given the current state of the article. --Triseult (talk) 04:06, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Bizarre and insulting edits

When you rewrote the Glitch page, you made some rather strange changes. Like changing Stewart's name to Steve and removing the link to his Wikipedia page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Glitch_(video_game)&diff=prev&oldid=530556131

Where did you get the idea that his name is Steve instead of Stewart, as the original page said? Citations, please, or did you just make that up? And why did you remove the link to his wikipedia page?

Why use such awkward weasel wording like "Steve Butterfield claims to have begun conceiving of the game that would later become Glitch as early as 2002," which implies he might be lying or exagerating? Is there any reason to doubt the well documented story of Game Neverending? http://www.gnespy.com/museum/ It's not like he just claimed he began conceiving that (and where is your citation of that claim?) -- he designed, implemented and published a running playable online game, that many people played and that you can read about on the GNE Museum site. There is absolutely no doubt about that, so there is no reason for such weasel wording.

And now on to the most atrocious part of your edits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Glitch_(video_game)&diff=prev&oldid=530553017

"Glitch was designed to be a casual, 2D browser-based game in the vein of Farmville, but with a stronger multiplayer component."

Your comparison of Glitch to Farmville, and the implication that Glitch's design was in any way based on Farmville, is quite insulting, uncalled for, and simply inaccurate. Glitch is about as different from Farmville as any MMPORG could possibly be, it was based on ideas Steward developed independently at Ludicorp many years before Zynga was founded and attempted to rip-off Maxis's and everyone else's games, and TinySpec the company is certainly nothing like Zynga in any way at all.

I mean, really: comparing Glitch to FARMVILLE??! As if Farmville's design came first? That's really low. Do you have an axe to grind against Glitch, or what? I think it's fair to call Glitch the Anti-Farmville, and TinySpec the Anti-Zynga, for their high quality design, and their integrity in not exploiting their users, un-launching back into beta, and then gracefully shutting down and refunding everyone's money.

I will fix the mistakes you made, and remove the weasel language, and remove the insulting comparison the Farmville, one of the most reviled games in the industry, which has been the subject of much criticism and even deconstructive satire in the form of parody game, Cow Clicker, by an academic game critic and video game researcher, Ian Bogost.

http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/why-i-hate-farmville-and-where-is-social-gaming-taking-us/

http://socialtimes.com/5-extreme-examples-of-people-hating-farmville_b9977

http://amplicate.com/hate/farmville

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker

At the 2010 Game Developers Conference, Zynga's game FarmVille was awarded the "Best New Social/Online Game" at its Game Developers Choice Awards. Ian Bogost (who was also in attendance) was critical of Zynga's success, as he felt that its business model was focused on convincing users to pay money to progress further in their "freemium" games rather than treating gaming as an artistic experience. He also believed Zynga's vice president Bill Mooney was trying to attack "artistic" gaming during his acceptance speech for the award when he personally invited independent game developers to join Zynga.[3] After the conference, Bogost coined the term "cow clickers" to describe games such as FarmVille which only involve performing tasks at certain intervals, since in these games, "you click on a cow, and that’s all you do." In an interview with CNET following the conference, he compared Zynga's games to "behaviorist experiments with rats" making reference to the skinner box and its tendency like some of B.F Skinner's experiments on rats to give variable reinforcement rather than regular rewards. As one of the most vocal critic of Zynga's practices, Bogost made further appearances at various events and panels to discuss his views on social gaming.[3]

http://www.npr.org/2011/11/18/142518949/cow-clicker-founder-if-you-cant-ruin-it-destroy-it

http://boingboing.net/2012/02/02/ian-bogost-the-sarcastic-game.html

http://www.bogost.com/blog/cow_clicker_1.shtml

At the 2010 Game Developers Conference, a schism seemed to erupt between "traditional" game developers, who make the sorts of console and casual games we've come to know well, and "social" game developers, who make games for Facebook and other networks. It was a storm that had been brewing for a few years, but the massive success of Zynga's FarmVille along with the company's publicly malicious attitude (as David Hayward calls it, a Fuck the Users design philosophy) had made even the most apathetic of game developers suddenly keen to defend their craft as art. An unfortunate award acceptance speech from the firm (cf "that Farmville asshole") hammered the last nail in the coffin, making this the year the year to hate social games.

And here is a discussion on the Glitch forum about how it's not like Farmville:

"Clearly, even people who play Farmville want to avoid playing Farmville."

http://www.glitch.com/forum/general/106/

Stewart was not only thinking of these ideas years before Farmville reared its ugly head, but he actually designed and implemented and published Game Neverending to explore those ideas, not simply rip-off Farmville. Game Neverending and Glitch were unique and original, and earned their critical acclaim. So it's not fair to say that Glitch is a well executed imitation of the best ideas from Farmville, when it's more accurate that Farmville is a badly executed imitation of the worst ideas of Game Neverending. You're putting the cart before the donkey to say that Glitch was "designed in the vein of Farmville".

Xardox (talk)

Response to Xardox

Hi Xardox! Just wanted to address the points you raised here and on my Talk page regarding the edits I made.

I want to preface my answer by saying that I made the edits because I loved Glitch, and it always bugged me that the page was incomplete, uneven, and was slapped with the 'advertisement' warning. That being said, your comments show me that I cut corners and should have spent more time on it.

1. Stewart vs. Steve: That's just a stupid mistake on my part. I didn't put a Wikipedia link because it was already in the sidebar. Please don't see any malicious intent in this.

2. Regarding my wording of "Steve Butterfield claims to have begun conceiving of the game that would later become Glitch as early as 2002", I meant no weaseling. I was being cautious about representing Butterfield's words, but you're right, there's no need to doubt his claim at all. I was ADDING the 2002 date to show the long, storied process of creating Glitch, not to cast doubt on Butterfield's aspirations.

3. Finally, about the Farmville bit: all I was trying to do was to give context to the game for non-Glitch players. I was taking the "Farmville" bit right out of the article I quoted, which said:

"Butterfield had been impressed by the success of casual, browser-based games such as Farmville, but he didn't find the games themselves terribly interesting. Despite being hosted on the world's largest social networks, they tended to be primarily single-player experiences. Sure, you could send bundles of grain to another player's farm, but you couldn't watch them farming and then step in to help them out."

Considering your reaction to the wording, I think I need to work on it more to avoid a direct comparison. I've simply removed the comparison, as there is no need to dwell on any comparison between the two games. Feel free to check out the edits, and make your own if you feel you can improve on my own writing. My wish is for a nice, clean and neutral Glitch page, nothing else. --Triseult (talk) 02:13, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Response to Triseult

Thanks for your quick response and for cleaning up the changes. I'm sorry I was so agressive, but the comparison to Farmville sounded like you might have an axe to grind against Glitch, and I certainly do have an axe to grind against Farmville (which I believe is justified, and critics like Ian Bogost would agree!). I'm glad to hear you're a fan of Glitch, and didn't mean to imply that it was imitating Farmville's design, but rather intended to make the article more neutral.

I would suggest putting in a mention of Game Neverending and reference to http://www.gnespy.com/museum , to put Glitch in historical context and show where its inspiration and experience came from. Glitch was actually a long-awaited reincarnation and rethinking of Game Neverending, which got indefinitely shelved when they were distracted by the success of Flickr (and that is an interesting story in itself). Unfortunately there is not currently a Wikipedia page on Game Neverending, although I think it's certainly important enough to deserve one, since it's highly regarded in the game industry, well documented on http://www.gnespy.com/museum , and it is mentioned in the pages on Ludicorp, Flickr and Caterina Fake.

Here are some interesting links about it:

Interview – Game Neverending vs. Glitch http://www.glitch-strategy.com/2012/04/interview-game-neverending-vs-glitch/

Glitch is the new Game Neverending http://kottke.org/10/02/glitch-is-the-new-game-neverending

May 05, 2003 | interview with Stewart Butterfield http://www.mindjack.com/feature/gne.html

Game Neverending article on Encycopedia Gamia http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/Game_Neverending

I'm sorry that my edits made you defensive. Rereading them, I immediately understood why you felt they were leading. I abhor Farmville too, so we're in the same boat here. :) I didn't know about GNE, but it is definitely relevant. I'll try to add something about it in the History section... Or feel free to do it, if you want. Thanks for helping make the Glitch entry better!--Triseult (talk) 03:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I have greatly improved the "Gameplay" article, from years of in-depth experience

Please note that I played Glitch for 2 years, I have very maturely and thoroughly added major content to the article "Gameplay". I have played it so much and in so many areas that I feel my additions are greatly needed and should be valued for people looking for more information.

Thank you

204.14.79.91 (talk) 00:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)Jacob W.

P.S. This is a Hotspot shield's server located in the United States of America, therefore many people might get this IP, as I was falsely accused earlier for editing Highland Tech High School, but be aware, this IP can be assigned to ANYONE in the world who has downloaded Hotspot Shield, and are using the free version based on a USA server. This is obviously not my regular IP either. Please note this postscript as a warning to people claiming that "I", or anyone else edited or violated something, when the IP is randomly assigned.

Thank you, again

Art is now CC-0

http://www.glitchthegame.com/public-domain-game-art/

©Geni (talk) 18:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)