Talk:Gloster Gladiator/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

Some sources dispute the number of Gladiators involved in the defense of Malta, claiming there were more than three, but so many reputable sources quote it, including givng the serial numbers of the aircraft involved, that it seems certain that it is reliable. Other aircraft were probably there and used for parts or held in reserve. DJ Clayworth — Preceding undated comment added 15:41, 27 August 2003 (UTC)

There were 4, but only three were given names. The 4th one was damaged and used for parts fairly early on, as I recall. Tannin 15:12, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I've found several references: there were 4, but only 3 pilots; there were 4 but one was held in reserve (possibly because there were only 3 pilots?); there were 7 according to the Czech airforce web site (don't ask me how they know). The most detailed accounts are the ones that say there were four but one was not used for some reason, and since the RAF museum, RCAF museum and Battle of Britain Archive all say there were three, at least for a period, I decided to keep it simple and go with that. DJ Clayworth 15:41, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Sunds reasonable to me, DJ. Tannin — Preceding undated comment added 23:34, 27 August 2003 (UTC)

See http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/malta.htm for the whole story. Seems to be a very good source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.109.190.88 (talk) 15:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

IIRC, four Sea Gladiators had been delivered by sea in crates and three were subsequently assembled and the fourth used for spares.

IIARC, they had been delivered to Malta as carrier replacement aircraft in 1940 when the Sea Gladiator was then a current naval fighter, but the carriers had never collected them, the Gladiator being obsolete by 1941-42 hence they had been left still in their crates.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.55.11 (talk) 10:49, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Correction; twelve crated Sea Gladiators had ben delivered to Kalafrana in 1939/1940 as spare aircraft for the carrier HMS Glorious but she was recalled home for the Norwegian Campaign leaving the twelve aircraft in Malta. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.144.50.207 (talk) 20:35, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Glosters in Britain

We would need to add a section under "Operational History" dealing with Brisith units flying the aircraft in Britain too. I will try to find information about this, but if someone can help, then I'd be happy. --MoRsE 13:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The list of British squadrons using the Gloster Gladiator appears in a.o. 'The Gloster Gladiator, Aircraft in profile no. 98', giving the order of battles of September 1937, 1938 (munich crisis), 1939 (outbreak of WW2 for the English) and the six squadron formed with Gladiators AFTER September 1939 127, 152, 247, 261, 263 and 521, all but the latter fighter squadrons (521 Sq. was a meteorological calibration unit).Dirk P Broer 00:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Dirk, I know you are a newcomer, but you have to sign your posts. In order to have other editors respond to your comments, it is customary to provide the following: user id and date and time of submission using the Coordinated Universal Time or UTC code. See my signature line and just copy it as yours with the appropriate changes. Another way to sign your name and add the time is to put 4 tildes (~) at the end of your post, and it adds your name and time automatically. Bzuk 0:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Hey, Dirk. How come you edited the date and time of your post? What's up with that? Manxruler 01:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to show to Bzuk that I read his reply. As my entry was then later than his reaction I edited the date. Dirk P Broer 20:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

To come back to the original question, British units flying the aircraft in Britain :

• No. 3 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from March 1937 till March 1938 and from July 1938 till July 1939.
• No. 25 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from June 1938 till February 1939.
• No. 54 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from April 1937 till April 1939.
• No. 56 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from July 1937 till May 1938.
• No. 65 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from May 1937 till April 1939.
• No. 72 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from March 1937 till May 1939 and in March 1940 when staioned at Acklington.
• No. 73 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from June 1937 till July 1938.
• No. 80 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from March 1937 till March 1941, but by then was stationed in the Mediterranean
• No. 85 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from June 1938 till September 1938.
• No. 87 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from June 1938 till July 1938.
• No. 603 Squadron RAF, used gladiators from October 1938 till it got Spitfires in August 1939.
• No. 605 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from February 1939 till November 1939. Got Hurricanes to re-equip in August 1939.
• No. 607 Squadron RAF, used the Gladiatorfrom March 1939 till MAy 1940. Got Hurricanes in June 1940, when the squadron got back in Ushworth after having been stationed in Acklington, Croydon, Merville (FRA), Vitry-en-Tardenois (FRA), Abbeville (FRA), Bethune (FRA) and Croydon.
• No. 615 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators from May 1939 till April 1940, then went to Hurricanes, while stationed in France.

Gladiator squadrons formed in the UK after September 1939:

• No. 152 Squadron RAF, used Gladiator from October 1939 and went to Spitfires in December 1939.
• No. 247 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators fro AUgust 1940. Got Hurricanes in December 1940, but used its Gladiators up to February 1941 (Only Squadron to fly Gladiators in the Battle of Britain).
• No. 263 Squadron RAF, used Gladiators (formerly from 605 Squadron, still wearing the 'HE' code letters) from October 1939 till June 1940, including the Norwegian Campaign.
• No. 521 Squadron RAF (meteorological calibration unit), Formed from 1401 (Met.)Flight in Auhgust 1942. Used Gladiators up to August 1943.

Another Met. Flight unit, 1402 (Met.)Flight used its Gladiators in Britain till January 1945 (Mason, 1964, page 104). The third and last Met. Flight using the Gladiator in Britain was 1403 (Met.)Flight, which was formed in early 1943 (Mason, 1964, page 105) and went to Gibraltar in May 1943.

Apart from these regular units No. 18 (Bomber)Squadron RAF seemed to use ten Gladiator for airfield defence (Mason, 1964, page 106) Dirk P Broer 01:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Gladiators in the defence of Singapore

'Citation needed' And indeed after a day of searching in my library I came no further than the next phrase in Alex Crawford's Gloster Gladiator: "When the Japanese launched their conquest of the Far East, the RAF had little in the way of spare aircraft to send to yet another theatre of operations. It was actually decided to send Gladiators to help to defend the British colonies in Malaya and Singapore. But all the available Gladiators were with second line units and were totally unsuited to being sent back to front line duties, and in the end the dicision was shelved and Hurricanes were sent instead" (page 44). Dirk P Broer 17:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think maybe the book Buffaloes Over Singapore: RAF, RAAF, RNZAF and Dutch Brewster Fighters in Action Over Malaya and the East Indies 1941-42 [1] mentions Gladiators at Singapore. I own the book and will check that as soon as I'm home and can go through my library. Manxruler 21:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you perhaps own one of the 'Bloody Shambles' titles as well? Preferably the first. Dirk P Broer 23:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I think Dirk's suspicions are correct. I've never seen reference to Gladdies in action over Malaya and Singapore. The Buffalos and Hurricanes had enough problems in air combat with Zeroes; the Japanese pilots would have been drooling if they'd seen Gladiators. Grant | Talk 04:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

See, for example, Dr Alan Stephens, 2001, "THE ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE IN 1941" (Australian Defence Force Academy) Grant | Talk 04:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Dirk: No I don't own any of the 'Bloody Shambles' titles, although I have had them in consideration recently. They're definitely on my 'to buy' list. In a couple of weeks I'll be home and have access to by library and I'll dig up more info on the Norwegian Gladiators as well. Manxruler 23:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi guys, sorry for the long delay (work, work, work), but I've now re-read Buffaloes Over Singapore: RAF, RAAF, RNZAF and Dutch Brewster Fighters in Action Over Malaya and the East Indies 1941-42. There is no mention of Gladiators at Singapore, the only fighters were Buffaloes and Hurricanes. The Dutch at Java had Buffaloes, Curtiss Hawks and CW-21s. I think its safe to say: there were no Gladiators at Singapore in WWII. Manxruler 01:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Turns out, me now having read Hurricanes over Singapore - RAF, RNZAF and NEI fighters in action against the Japanese over the island and the Netherlands East Indies, 1942, that Singapore Command was offered Gladiators, 26 to be exact, but turned them down. Guess they understood that the Glads would be no match for Japanese fighters. Manxruler (talk) 11:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The Japanese didn't have any "Zeros" in Singapore, Malaya, or Burma. The Mitsubishi A6M Zero was an IJN (Navy) type and the IJA (Army) used Nakajima Ki-43s and Nakajima Ki-27's. There were no Hurricanes either, at least initially. Prior to the Japanese invasions Britain didn't send fighters with liquid-cooled engines to the Far East, only those with air-cooled ones as they were thought better suited to the local conditions. That's why they sent the Buffalo and not the Tomahawk - although the latter would probably have been a better bet. But they didn't know that at the time. Nor did they know that war was definitely going to break out with Japan.

While its almost certainly true that Gladiators would have had a hard time against the Japanese, Britain eventually sent some ex-Battle of Britain Hurricane Ia's and they managed OK against the Japanese fighters. Later the UK sent out new Hurrciane II's, and eventually Spitfire VIII's, and the latter slaughtered any and all enemy aircraft they came across.

BTW, there was very little Allied intelligence on Japanese aircraft until some time into the war, and so many Japanese fighters were referred-to in contemporary Allied reports as "Zeros" whether they were A6M's or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.10.163 (talk) 20:30, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

J8A

These aircraft are also designated J8A I believe (J8A redirects here). What is the origin of this code? Drutt 20:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Drutt. J8 and J8A are Swedish designations to the Gloster Gladiator. See: [2]. Manxruler 21:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Faith, Hope and Charity

For those interested, I have hived off the material about the Hal Far Fighter Flight — the legendary Faith, Hope and Charity etc — into its own article. I have also added a pic of Faith to both articles. Comments and corrections welcome. Grant | Talk 11:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Somehow an entire paragraph got squeezed into the caption. I changed that but was it intentional? FWIW Bzuk 13:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC).

In this instance I won't miss it. But sometimes a long caption is a good caption. Grant | Talk 15:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

North Africa section: information misplaced?

Although the latest additions to this article bring out more information about the Gloster Gladiator's role in North Africa, there is a question of WP:Weight that is disproportionate regarding the Italian adversaries. I am recommending a major culling and perhaps transfer of this information to a more appropriate article: the Fiat CR.42. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 22:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC).

Another survivor

A curious omission from the article. The Shuttleworth Trust has maintained a flyable Gladiator (L8032/G-AMRK?) but it's hard to tell from internet sources to determine its status in 2012. Here's a link:

68.2.63.115 (talk) 23:47, 7 November 2012 (UTC)B Tillman

References

Roald Dahl

Known as a children's writer rather than a fighter pilot - and in any case his operational career was entirely on Hurricanes. PLUS we already quote his not very accurate description of the Gladiator in full (the stringers were thin steel tube, not "sticks"). Dahl is certainly notable, but his fighter pilot career is incidental - and the Gladiator is incidental to that. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:31, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Dahl's reference to the Gladiator was more likely made out of ignorance, as it is possible that he as a 'duration only' pilot never received the basic course on aircraft structures that pre-war RAF pilots did. The same sort of comments have also been made in some memoirs of the Fairey Swordfish and that wasn't made of wood either. BTW, neither the Spitfire nor the Hurricane were "made of stressed steel".

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Gloster Gladiator/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The article, as of now, has a lot of important information, but is insufficient in som certain parts. This famous aircraft has probably an interesting development story, right now the History section is only a few lines long. Also there is very little written about RAF, FAA Glosters; the primary user pre-WWII. --MoRsE 14:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 14:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 16:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Dahl's quote

As far as the Dahl's quote goes - it's basically a lot of BS - Gladiator's wing was covered with fabric, but the construction beneath was all-metal, no "small kindling sticks". I am not necessarily proposing removal of the quote, but it should be somewhat made clear that it's just a fanciful poetic licence thing, not an accurate design description? -87.249.145.69 (talk) 19:05, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

China

Currently says the first aircraft shot down were Mitsubishi A5M, but the source on John Wong later in the section says the aircraft attacking in February were Nakajima E8N seaplanes, and that Wong fought A5Ms in April.[3]GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:07, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The print sources probably count as a more reliable source than the random internet source used later.Nigel Ish (talk) 16:06, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Not really random, the author of the website co-wrote "Fiat CR.42 Aces of World War 2" for Osprey Publishing. GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:08, 3 February 2021 (UTC)