Talk:Godfrey Chitalu

Edit request on 11 December 2012

change the 107 goal record because it is not true he scored 76 goals in one season... 79.126.148.121 (talk) 15:51, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

There are several reliable sources which report the 107 goal figure. Do you have a source that shows it is incorrect? Jogurney (talk) 17:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, the cited source says "surpassed only by Pele's record 121 netted in 1961", so now Pelé is the new recordman again.190.231.146.104 (talk) 19:06, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I came here to post about the same, it's incorrect to state that Chitalu scored an unofficial record of 107 goals, because for unofficial records therea are dozens out there, one example, Pelé scored 110 according to english Wikipedia itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9

Pele also scored 127 goals in 1959, that is the real unofficial world record Lsw10 (talk) 23:44, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

 Not done stale request Pol430 talk to me 23:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 December 2012

I think "El récord no es de Leo Messi, es de Chitalu: 107 goles en total" by Tomás Roncero shouldn't be considered as a reference because the journalist clearly states in the video above his own article that his source is Wikipedia. Concerning the 107 goals, it may be relevant to add that according to this Zambian article http://www.zambianfootball.co.zm/?p=2299 several or at least some of them where scored in friendly games and therefore cannot be official. Letargik (talk) 19:13, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

this chitalu and his record are pure jokes,who is chitalu,zambia???pfff,they have a liga?omg,maybe his record is for amateur ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.122.230.205 (talk) 12:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

 Not done stale request Pol430 talk to me 23:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 December 2012

The record of Chitalu is false. It should be accepted by the FIFA, but it isn't. So, until the FIFA doesn't accept the record, it is for Leo Messi. Also the Guiness Records say that Messi has it.

GGrosman (talk) 15:17, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20727929Fifa refuses to back Lionel Messi or Godfrey Chitalu for goal record. Fifa has refused to get involved in the debate about who holds the world record for scoring the most goals in a year. It was widely reported that Lionel Messi's 86th goal of 2012, which he scored on Sunday, surpassed a mark set by Germany's Gerd Mueller 40 years ago. But the Zambian Football Association claimed Godfrey Chitalu had scored 107 goals for club and country in 1972.

Lsw10 (talk) 23:51, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

 Not done stale request Pol430 talk to me 23:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

14 December 2012

Messi's 'record' isn't accepted by FIFA either, becuase it isn't an official record. Chitalu's record is legitimate, because he scored 106 goals in Football Association of Zambia (Zambian Premier League, Challenge Cup, Chibuku Cup, Castle Cup, Charity Shield, and CAF competitions (African Club Champions Cup, international games). Therefore the record is legitimate (as legitimate as Messi's so-called record). The Zambia FA has accepted this record as legitimate: "Presenting the evidence and record of Chitalu’s goals to FAZ Vice President Boniface Mwamelo at a press conference at the Golden Peacock Hotel in Lusaka Wednesday morning, Muchimba said: “This work has been undertaken over a long time. We have looked at the 1972 league games, local cup games, African inter club championships and Zambia national team games. We are not just looking at mere speculation. These matches were played and recorded and Ucar scored.”" - http://www.zambianfootball.co.zm/?p=2546

Marutimon (talk) 18:58, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

fuck off with this chitalu fucking monkeys,zambia football,muhahahahahahah,shitest thing i've ever heard,go to suck a dick moron. PFA

Dubious sources

This edit ([1]) came out of nowhere with a lot of unverifiable sources. Does this person have access to an all-time collection of The Zambian Times with articles about Chitalu highlighted or is there a digitalized news archive of The Zambian Times? If it's the first case, hopefully he can scan them. If it's the second case, hopefully he can provide us of a link. Let's wait for a proper explanation.Dribblingod (talk) 08:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

There's no requirement for articles to be available electronically. The editor may have visited a library with access to these newspapers. Hack (talk) 09:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

So, you can invent things and write as a source "The Thailand Post. 25 of May of 1967". If he visited a library and found every article about Chitalu, for sure he would scan them? --Dribblingod (talk) 09:10, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Placing a date and publisher on the reference allows it to be verified. Hack (talk) 09:22, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

By taking a trip to Zambia? So, in case of doubt, Wikipedia's policy is trusting the editor?--

Dribblingod (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, as long as they say where they got the information. As it happens, the National Archives of Zambia are currently digitising newspapers from this era. Hack (talk) 10:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Pretty ridiculous attack. The wikipedia author is probably Jerry Muchimba himself, the one who gathered the material and first unearthed the data to the world. As such he had access to the Zambian archives. At this moment and time you would have to confront his claims with the archives, else his claims stand. The sources seem legitimate, are submitted in a proper fashion and just because you can't access them online that they are fully referenced.Marutimon (talk) 19:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Not an official record

• Messi's record is recognized by the FIFA despite what the spokesman said [2][3]
• And by the Guiness World Records [4]
• Only 80 of those 107 goals were actually official (49 in the Zambian Premier League, 4 in the African Cup of Champions Clubs, 2 in the World Cup qualification, 15 in the Zambian Cup and 10 in the Zambian Challenge Cup). The other 27 were scored in unofficial games (5 goals in friendly games that were not between national teams, 5 goals in benefit tournaments, 16 goals in a unofficial cup called Chibuku Cup and 1 goal scored a unofficial cup called Charity Shield)
• The Federation of Football of Zambia only considers officially won by the Kabwe Warriors 13 cups that are the 5 Castle Cups (now Zambian Cup) and the 8 Challenge Cups. The Charity Shield and the Chibuku Cup were not official [5]
• The Federation of Football of Zambia literally states it is an "unofficial record of 107 goals" [6]
• The Federation of Football of Zambia did not make the research or recognized it as official, they merely asked the FIFA about it, and the FIFA turned them down--Dribblingod (talk) 21:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Wrong:

• FIFA has officially declined to take a stance on the matter and the spokesman basically underlines this. If you quote the FIFA website newscentre than you will also find out that it has Pele as scorer of 127 goals in one season in his official bio [7]
• Chitalu scored 113 goals in 1972. These included: 49 in the Zambian Premier League, 13 in the African Cup of Champions Clubs, 2 in the World Cup qualification, 15 in the Zambian Cup and 10 in the Zambian Challenge Cup. Which brings the total to 89. Out of the remaining 24 goals: 7 were in unofficial games, 1 in the Charity Cup, 17 in the Chibuku Cup.
• Charity Shield - An official season opening game much like a Supercup. It is a FAZ competition, as can be seen in the link. [8]
• Chibuku Cup, also known as the Heinrich Cup was a now defunct regional tournament, also officially recognised by FAZ. [9]
• Ergo his record for 1972 is 106. It is unofficial. But so is Messi's. But FAZ now state it is official in their eyes (since they now have the proof to back it up).
• The Federation of Football of Zambia did not make the research. Jerry Muchinda of Zamfoot did, backed it up with archival material and FAZ supports him 100%.Marutimon (talk) 22:47, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Right:

• 127 goals including friendlies, discounting friendlies the official tally is way less and lower than Messi's. Which also proves that counting unofficial games it's not even Chitalu's record. It's Pele's record.
• Still Guiness World Record
• Said 9 are not recognized by the FAZ
• They are not official as seen on the official website [10] that only acknowledges 15 cup wins. Those sites you posted are not official.
• The Federation of Football of Zambia literally states it is an "unofficial record of 107 goals" [11]
• The Federation of Football of Zambia did not make the research or recognized it as official, they merely asked the FIFA about it, and the FIFA turned them down. Then again, you don't provide a link from the FAZ, but a link from a newspaper.
• The RSSSF is not the FAZ. --Dribblingod (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Wrong:

• So? Still proves that FIFA news is not an official FIFA statement. Meanwhile a statement by the FIFA spokesperson is.
• Still Guiness World Record - the one legitimate claim you have
• Geesh. It only says it wasn't part of the 1972 season tally (as the season started 27th February 1972 with the OFFICIAL Charity Shield). But IT IS part of the 1972 CALENDAR YEAR tally (use logic). It's 9 goals in an offical CAF tournament, where BTW he was the topscorer with 13 goals.
• It is a REGIONAL CUP. An official FAZ approved regional cup. Meanwhile you are basing your argument on extrapolating content which has no direct reference to the matter at hand (citing a history of the Super League, not one about cups).
• The Football Association of Zambia more recently states "We have this record, which has been recorded in Zambian football, but unfortunately it has not been recorded in world football. (...) "The team that we have put together is going to calculate all of those goals, recording whichever game or tournament they were scored in, we will then send that to CAF and FIFA so that we can show that, while Messi's record is there, while Mueller's record is there, the actual record holder in terms of goals per calendar year is actually an African, it's actually Godfrey Chitalu." [12]
• FIFA also turned Messi down and stated officially that it is not there business :) Jerry Muchimba, Zambian historian, made the research. The Football Association of Zambia HAS OFFICIALLY accepted it and recognized it. FIFA declined to take a stance on it. I provided a links to articles, which have the FAZ spokesperson, president and vicepresident backing the record. Apart from an official FAZ statement you can't be any more official.

--Maruitmon (talk) 23:32, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Right:

• FIFA recognizes it despite what one spokesman said as you can clearly see in the website.
• Source? Or you are assuming it? Still waiting for that link from the FAZ.
• If it's approved by the FAZ why it is not listed nor mentioned absolutely anywhere? Still waiting for that link from the FAZ.
• Still waiting for that link from the FAZ.
• Still waiting for that link from the FIFA. The only two things the FIFA website says about the record is that it's 88 goals
• Keep ignoring that the Federation of Football of Zambia literally states it is an "unofficial record of 107 goals" [13]

--Dribblingod (talk) 22:40, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Wrong:

• No. FIFA spokesman is official. Meanwhile the FIFA website states: 11.4 COMMENTARY AND OTHER MATERIALS POSTED ON THE WEBSITE, OR CONTAINED IN ANY FEEDS FROM IT, ARE NOT INTENDED TO AMOUNT TO ADVICE ON WHICH RELIANCE SHOULD BE PLACED. NO INFORMATION, WHETHER ORAL OR WRITTEN, OBTAINED BY YOU FROM FIFA, OR THROUGH OR FROM THE WEBSITE, SHALL CREATE ANY WARRANTY OR OTHER OBLIGATION NOT EXPRESSLY STATED IN THE TERMS AND FIFA DISCLAIMS ALL LIABILITY AND RESPONSIBILITY ARISING FROM ANY RELIANCE PLACED UPON SUCH MATERIALS BY ANY VISITOR TO THE WEBSITE OR BY ANYONE WHO MAY BE INFORMED OF ANY OF ITS CONTENTS. [14]. Ergo: It's not FIFA's official position. Unless FIFA make an official statement, than Spokesperson trumps website news.
• Use logic, dude. It was 9 goals scored in an official CAF competition. [15]. And Zamfoot states this: "“We are also aware that some of the goals against Union Espanola of Chile, friendlies against club side Sheffield United of England might fall out but as we have said this is the best opportunity for us to really clarify how many goals Ucar scored. Atleast we have a starting point with Jerry [Muchimba]‘s research. But again there was also games against Lesotho’s Majantja FC in the Africa Club Champions which was not counted then in 1972 and Ucar scored an incredible 7 goals as Warriors won 9-0." [16]
• Why isn't it listed on the FAZ website? Because it doesn't exist since 1983 and internet didn't exist back then. I gave links to RSSSF and until you find proof otherwise it is . So far you have NO PROOF the Chibuku Cup wasn't an official competition.

--Marutimon (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

The FIFA website link you give just says that Messi scored 88 goals and surpassed Muller, it doesn't say that he has the world record.[24][25]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20727929 Fifa does not keep domestic records, so "it's not an official Fifa record", spokesman Alex Stone told BBC Sport. The world governing body said that, given it only maintains statistics for the international competitions it runs, it is not possibly to ratify records from club football around the world. We don't have a database which details every football game played in every country from around the world since day one of their formation," Stone said.

• Charity Shield/ Super Cup, those are official competitions.Lsw10 (talk) 23:49, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

RESPECT TO DRIBBLING GOD!Marutimon (talk) 16:45, 15 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.31.181.23 (talk)

May I come in?

I have followed the preceding exchange with interest and it’s a pity I didn’t happen on it earlier otherwise I would have made a contribution. The only question that I came across was from Dribblingod on my talk page questioning my sources of info under ‘Dubious Sources.’ It was indeed an editing war but I am pleased that there is an explanation for the 107 goals in the article. Some of the comments are however offensive, in particular this unsigned post:

“fuck off with this chitalu fucking monkeys,zambia football,muhahahahahahah,shitest thing i've ever heard,go to suck a dick moron. PFA”

There was also this post

"this chitalu and his record are pure jokes,who is chitalu,zambia???pfff,they have a liga?omg,maybe his record is for amateur ones."

Well, to answer some of the questions

• Muchimba did the research. Hack (talk) 09:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC) is right that the editor visited a library and found articles of Chitalu
• Thanks to Hack and Marutimon for pointing out to Dribblingod that Placing a date and publisher on the reference allows it to be verified and that my claims stand. Very insightful too, as to the identity of the editor.
• I believe Dribblingod, mistrusting as always, sent the National Archives an email; to enquire if they have all the old papers and if Muchimba did the research. I am sure they answered an emphatic YES to both questions. Thank God for libraries.
• Muchimba did the research though at that time, the newspapers had not been digitized so he was looking at the actual newspapers of 1972. The next person who will go the archives armed with the list of references will have a far much easier task.

Just to clarify:

• The Zambian league in 1972 was not amateur as people allege but had been in existence from 1962, as were the cup competitions
• Two years later, Zambia reached the final of the African Cup of Nations. Incidentally, Zambia are the current African champions and have 2 silver medals and 3 bronze so it’s not like we are talking about a small, never before heard of country in terms of football.
• All the matches were official except (in the researchers view) for the matches against Maseru United (from Lesotho), and the matches against Sheffield United and Union Espanola
• He also said the Midlands vs Copperbelt matches were a bit hard to classify. They were official matches in that they were organised by the FAZ but were matches involving neither Warriors not the Zambia national team. They competed for what was called the NFL trophy but the midlands were a regional team made up of players from Warriors and other clubs such as Green Buffaloes, City of Lusaka and Kabwe United
• The Charity Shield was an official competition. It is the season-opening fixture similar to the English Community Shield
• The Castle Cup, Challenge Cup and Heinrich Chibuku Cup were all official knockout competitions played over at least 5 rounds, with prize-money for the winners. And yes, the FAZ have vouched for all these matches
• And who came up with the idea that the Chibuku Cup was not official anyway? You may be surprised to know that some countries outside Europe have more than one cup competition.

That said, scans of pages highlighting Chitalu’s exploits are available, with the picture Chitalu holding the ball with ‘107 goals’ on it as a start. and if an email address can be provided to me, I will send the scans SOLELY for the purpose of backing up what has been put in the article. I am pretty sure I have scans of most, if not all of those matches.

Of course I will need your assurance that they will be used only for the intended purpose. At least it will prove that someone went to the library and looked at the old newspapers, that libraries exist, and maybe some people will stop calling us monkeys... and I thought this only happened on European soccer pitches. Regards.

Edit request on 14 December 2012

Edit war ongoing. Moderation needed.

Marutimon (talk) 23:30, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

 Not done not an edit request Pol430 talk to me 23:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Number in national team

Is there any references about which number he used to use in the national team?

There's none except for the picture showing him scoring against USSR. He wore both number 10 for club and country — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.223.119.129 (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 January 2013

Re: RECORDS In the records segment at the end of the article I would prefer outside opinion. In my opinion the whole reference to Pons article should be deleted as it is a poorly substantiated and opinionated claim, which extrapolated information not found on the Zambian FA as fact. For example it can easily be proven that his claim that the Charity Shield is not an official FAZ competition is false.

Marutimon (talk) 19:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The {{edit semi-protected}} is only for requesting an edit to a protected article that you cannot edit yourself; it is not for soliciting outside opinion. This page is not currently protected and was not under any protection at the time of the above edit request. To solicit outside opinion, I recommend visiting the talk page of one of the applicable WikiProjects, identified at the top of this talk page. WP Football would probably the best one. Thank you. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 20:45, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. Didn't notice it's no longer protected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.9.173.136 (talk) 23:27, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia can not be a propaganda page of Chitalu.

Wikipedia can not be a propaganda page of Chitalu. In this table, published in "as", "marca", and "zambianfootball.co.zm" THERE ARE 11 GOALS IN FRIENDLY MATCHES: http://www.zambianfootball.co.zm/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Ucar-record.jpg

You can read in http://www.fazfootball.com/content/super-league-history/:

"Warriors however are not the most successful despite laying claim to legendary late great striker Godfrey "Ucar" Chitalu scoring an unofficial record of 107 goals in the 1972 season.

Warriors are second best with 13 cup and five league crowns on the Zambian football honours list.

The top honour goes to Mufulira Wanderers, who have produced some of Zambia’s biggest stars from the late Samuel "Zoom" Ndholvu who captained and coached the club as well as the national team.

Three of his protégés Kalusha Bwalya, Charles Musonda and the late goalkeeper David "Effort" Chabala also made their names at Wanderers.

Wanderers won 18 cup titles and nine league championships."

cups of warriors, 5 castle cups + 8 challenge cups: 13

cups of wanderers, 9 castle cups + 9 challenge cups: 18

In the honors of FAZ website are not "chibuku" and "charity shield", why?

In the honors of Real Madrid, Milan, Barcelona, etc, are all officials cups. No one forgets a official cup.

Can anyone imagine that in the honors of Real Madrid were not the European Supercup?

Also in statistics IFFHS: "Only one national cup per season can be considered for each country". Yo can see: http://www.iffhs.de/?3ccac3be8e00390b02fc4f02205fdcdc3bfcdc0aec70aeedb30b

There is no evidence of Chitalu goals. No pictures. Only one table and a photo. The author of this page questions the research data Pons. The author of this page should apologize.

You rectify .. right now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersua74 (talk • contribs) 14:05, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

1. Brief research into the matter shows that the Charity Shield is an official season opening trophy much like the British FA Community Shield. 2. Redo your math. There are 7 to 10 goals in friendlies (depending on how you count the FAZ organised Midlands XI vs Copperbelt XI). Not 11. 3. Your main issue is with the Chibuku Cup / Heinrich Cup, which is now defunct and therefore not as highly noted as the ongoing cups. Also if you check out websites or wikipedias of clubs you will easily note that they boast as to the amount of Chibuku Cup they won. Such as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mufulira_Wanderers_F.C. or 4. 'Only one national cup per season can be considered for each country' - tell that to Mueller and his 85 goals in 1972. Or Pele with his official goals. Fact is that leagues were smaller back in the 1970s and in order to counteract this FAs organised more trophies. Note that Chitalu scored his 108 goals in ca 45 games (compared to Messi's 60+). Even so IFFHS is hardly decisive in 'world records' and their criteria are arbitrary. Marutimon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.9.209.176 (talk) 00:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Mistake in the table. Chitalu's record is 108 goals.

The problem is that the table of 107 goals has a big mistake.

http://www.zambianfootball.co.zm/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Ucar-record.jpg

In the game "Warriors - Union Española", in the column "scorers" is Chitalu. But his goal is not in the right column. If this goal was in the right column, Chitalu has ¡¡¡108 goalssss!!!!.

This table have a big mistake and it has published in MARCA, AS and www.zambianfootball.co.zm.

In an internet forum in Argentina, people say this error. People laugh this error. I have found the error in that forum and I have kept a copy of the table. In the future I will send it to the sports media so they can see the errors in the record Chitalu.

If you does not rectify this page I will contact with wikipedia and I explain everything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petersua74 (talk • contribs) 14:24, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

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