Talk:Godscall Paleologue/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 08:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Happy to review this article.

Assessment

Lead section

• The Paleologus link could be linked to 'Paleologus family'.

'Paleologus family' isn't an article but I did what I think you meant here. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Link baptismal; Greek (Greek language).

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Unlink London (MOS:OL).

Unlinked London in the infobox. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• As such, nothing is known of Godscall's life. Although it is possible that she died young, it is also possible that she might simply have faded into obscurity. - can be shortened to 'Nothing is known of Godscall's life.', as the majority of the rest of the statement is conjecture and be surmised by the complete lack of facts.

Shortened it to "Nothing is known of her life". Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• The reason for her unusual name… - consider 'The meaning of her name…'?

Changed to "the meaning of her name". Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• ...and various theories have been proposed. - imo this is vague, and nothing is lost by leaving it out.

Yeah, removed it. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Why possibly?

Which "possibly" do you have a problem with? The first one, "reference to the child possibly being sickly", is just to make clear that we have no idea if she was sickly or healthy. The second one, "or possibly that one or both of her parents were Puritans", is again to make clear that this is just an idea; there is nothing else to suggest that Theodore/Theodorious Paleologus or Martha Bradbury were Puritans. I've removed the second one since it doesn't really add much at closer examination but I don't think the first one should go. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed with what you've done. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Imo the infobox is unnecesary for so short an article about so minor a person. What do you think?

I don't think it detracts from the article and it does have info to present (i.e. an exact date and place of birth, the father and mother, and the noble family to which she belonged). I used it so that the article was more consistent with those of her relatives (recent GA Ferdinand Paleologus, her great-grandfather Theodore Paleologus and others). If you think it really shouldn't be here it could be removed but I don't see it negatively impacting anything. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

That's fine, out of interest, my GA Ricberht of East Anglia—also of whom nothing is known—has his own infobox. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• I would avoid eccentric unless cited, as it seems editorial otherwise.

Norwich (1995), cited in the "name" section, calls the name "eccentric" but yeah, I've removed it. "Godly" should do just fine since "Godscall" is quite the godly name. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Biography

• Godscall was the posthumous daughter… - full name needed here.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Theodorious Paleologus - more of the sources name him as 'Theodore Paleologus', and "Theodorious" used in a will could easily be an example of Dog Latin, commonly found in records in those days. Consider using the English form of the name.

He is called 'Theodorious' in his father's will and (if I remember correctly) 'Theodorus' in his own will, but yes calling him Theodore is more common today. I created the article for him under the name 'Theodorious Paleologus' to distinguish him from all of the many other Theodore Paleologus/Palaiologos out there, but calling him Theodore here should be fine (he is called Theodore consistently through Ferdinand Paleologus's article for instance). Changed to 'Theodore' at all instances. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Consider improving the text by moving ...born on 12 January 1694., i.e. to read 'Godscall Paleologue was born on 12 January 1694, the posthumous daughter...'.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Amend ...in Stepney, London. slightly to 'in the East London district of Stepney.'.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Italics not needed in the quotation. ...its fall in 1453… - why not amend to '…the fall of Constantinople in 1453…' (linked)?

Removed italics in quotation and changed to "the fall of Constantinople...". Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• I would start a new paragraph after In The Traveller's Tree: A Journey Through the Caribbean Islands (1950), … as the text moves from a discussion of Godscall's ancestors to talking about the child herself at this point.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Why is claimant in quotes?

"claimant" is the word choice in the source itself but I thought that this wording is a bit questionable since I doubt Godscall herself actively "claimed" anything? I think "heir" would be more appropriate, so I can remove the quotes or replace it with heir, which ever you think is most appropriate. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

An heir transplant would work well, done for you. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• ... further life… - 'life'.

Removed "further". Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• ...a little orphan girl… - unless it can be verified, the term orphan should be edited out, as it is commonly used to mean both parent have died, and the citations given do not mention the mother as having died as well.

At least one of the sources specifically called her an "orphan", but yeah I agree, there doesn't seem to be any evidence presented that her mother had died at this point. Removed "orphan". Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• If she survived infancy, grew up and married, all traces of her have been lost. - I'm unclear why the possibility that she married is mentioned here. Why not simply say 'It is not known whether she survived infancy, as no other records of her have been discovered'.

One of the sources mentioned the possibility, but yeah, that is just speculation. Replaced with your suggestion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Name

• Link surname.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• …over the centuries,… - this seems to imply that is there has been speculation in previous centuries - is there evidence of this? Hall mentions that the record of the child came to light in 1946.

No, this was just over-embellishment it seems. Removed "over the centuries". Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Another possible explanation… - amend to 'Another explanation…'?

This was again to illustrate that this is a somewhat doubtful idea, but I've removed "possible". Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Another alternative… - alternative cannot be used when there are more than two choices, as is the case here. Consider amending to something like 'Hall suggests that the girl may have been sickly…}}

Went with your suggestion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• I don't see the need to use quotation marks for the Puritan names listed (Hall doesn't).

Removed quotation marks. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• ...Theocletiane (Θεοκλητιανή), which essentially means "God's call". - citation needed.

The Zoras info was originally added at Ferdinand Paleologus's article by someone else and it's in Greek so I can't read it, but surely Zoras has to say this if he thinks Godscall is an anglicized version of Theocletiane. As per Pope Anacletus's article, "cletus" means "one who has been called" and "theos" means "God" so it should check out, difficult to find other citations for this, though. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Understood. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Interesting that there is evidence that Godscall was also a boy's name, as well a surname (from Ancestry). Worth mentioning?

The surname possibility is already mentioned (and yeah, there are some people with the name as a surname on Ancestry - all from the 1700s onwards it seems), which is interesting, but I couldn't find what you're referring to with the possibility that it was also a boy's name. I don't doubt it but I haven't been able to find anyone except for this Godscall who had it as a first name. With citations that would be worth mentioning I think. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

See this record for a certain Godscall Wright from Family Search (also on Ancestry). Amitchell125 (talk) 21:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Okay! Yeah, that is interesting. I don't think Ancestry or Family Search can be used as reliable sources, but if it's brought up in future works mentioning Godscall Paleologue, it can definitely be added here. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Legacy

• ...finding no living Palaiologoi. - delete this, as it has already been made clear that they "searched in vain".

Deleted. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Since the last records of the family in the 17th century, the Paleologus family have sometimes been featured in legends and in popular culture. - I'm only seeing two examples here, both novels written less than 30 years ago. Unless there are other stories going back much further, this sentence should be removed.

The family as a whole (really only Godscall's great-grandfather Theodore and grandfather Ferdinand) has been featured in earlier stuff but I though it best to only mention the stuff that Godscall herself figures in. Shortened it to "The Paleologus family have sometimes been featured in popular culture" which should be fine? Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• There seems to me a great deal of unnecessary detail in the second and third paragraphs, rather unrelated to Godscall Paleologue, and which could do with being edited out.

I edited down the second paragraph a bit but I think the third one is fine since most of it relates directly to how Godscall figures in the story; I'm open to removing more if you think that's needed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Fine now. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

References

• Hall's book is available from Google Books.

Added. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Ditto Carr's book.

Added. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

• Jane Stevenson's book can be found at the Internet Archive (here), consider adding her to a Further reading section.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

On hold

The above list consists mostly of points that can easily be addressed. I'm placing the article on hold until 12 June. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:55, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: I've responded to everything, some points might need more discussion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Passing

Nicely done, Ichthyovenator. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing :) Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)