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Talk:Gojira (band)

Latest comment: 2 years ago by Oroborvs in topic GA Review
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Good articleGojira (band) has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 22, 2008Good article nomineeListed
May 6, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
April 5, 2018Good article reassessmentDelisted
October 13, 2021Guild of Copy EditorsCopyedited
January 9, 2022Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article

GAN

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Latest comment: 3 years ago10 comments3 people in discussion

To whom it may concern, we are aware that this article has a maintenance tag on it. It was not here when we nominated it and was placed by a copyeditor. We will be happy to comply with whatever recommendations a reviewer makes to correct the problem, and believe that this could be feasibly resolved during the course of the nomination. So please do not see it as grounds for quickfailing - we have worked very hard on improving this article from the shambles it previously was in. Thanks! dannymusiceditor oops 04:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

  • Not a reviewer but I'm going to be bold and remove some of the excess citations from the awards and nominations section. Most of them have 2 citations each which is completely unnecessary. Removed almost all the extra citations except for cases where they were just nominated and the article talking about the winners did not mention them at all. -Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 18:02, 29 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Ujwal.Xankill3r: An explanatory sentence like "The Revolver Golden Gods Awards is an annual awards ceremony established in 2009 by Revolver magazine." must be supported by a source, even if it does not refer to Gojira. If no ref, a user will add a tag requesting a source. The articles of Queensrÿche and Korn have the same type of content, in fact there is no page for these awards, hence this type of info. For the number of sources per info, this is debatable, but avoid doing massive deletions and talk about it here before. Oroborvs (talk) 20:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Oroborvs: no worries - that's what WP:BRD is about. That said why did you reinstate the redundant citations for the awards themselves? Even the Korn article (the Queensrÿche one is actually missing citations for some of the nominations) you have linked to as a good example has only one citation per award+year combination. We most certainly do not need 2 when one quality source is sufficient. There can definitely be a discussion around which of the two sources is of higher quality and we can then keep that one only. But keeping both seems compeletely unnecessary. -Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 06:21, 30 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Oroborvs: as far as the awards missing their own page issue is concerned I propose we tackle it directly. We should at the very least add it as a subsection on the main article. For example there can be a new section on the Loudwire article about their awards. It need not be super detailed right away and we can just start by defining what it is and providing sources for that. We can WP:COPYWITHIN for a start. It would be beneficial for the Loudwire article as well - it is currently a stub. Same can be done for Revolver Golden Gods - and it would be equally beneficial for the Revolver (magazine) article too as it is currently marked as needing citations. Once those are done we can link to the subsection in the main article and remove the citation from here. Two birds one stone etc, etc. -Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 06:42, 30 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
I have created a section for the Epiphone Revolver awards on the Revolver (magazine) article and wikilinked from here. If it does not get removed from there we can safely remove the unnecessary citation. -Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 07:11, 30 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Ujwal.Xankill3r: Thanks dude. What I was saying at the outset is that a short explanatory sentence supported by a single source does not hurt, the reader does not know what the "Heavy Music Awards" is, and I do not have time to create a page dedicated to these awards. Sometimes (not always) two sources do the work together (in the awards tables) as with the Metal Hammer Golden Gods Awards (in 2016): Metal Insider announced the nominees [1] and Metal Hammer only gives the list of winners [2]. You seem more concerned with the award articles than I do and I'd rather you take care of it because now I'm focusing on the citation clutters (over several days) from Gojira's article, keeping one to two per info, no more.
Note: in the underground era (1996-2006), there are some interviews by French webzines done backstage after concerts, which could be questionable (VS-Webzine, W-Fenec, Xtazine) but as these are old underground interviews with precise info, it is impossible to find this type of info elsewhere. Oroborvs (talk) 14:22, 30 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Those are fine. If they are interviews with the band members, their word is generally accepted as reliable. dannymusiceditor oops 04:30, 2 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

@DannyMusicEditor: Yes. These sources can also be questionable (myself I judged it as ok):
Biography by Hardwired magazine (online magazine) is formerly Nocturne Magazine (a published source). Jadranka Balaš, who wrote Gojira's biography, is a journalist [3] [4]
Biography by W-Fenec webzine from France; they did five Gojira interviews. The Webzine (not user generated) stopped in 2012 after 14 years of activity and started publishing in pdf format [5].
Biography by Proximus [6] with extracts from interviews (interesting for Empalot). The biography must come from reliable sources as I see nothing wrong.
Metal Rules. A long concert review with photography. Info about the Duplantier brothers who swapped their instruments in concert to play a jam, "Tron". [7] Oroborvs (talk) 19:25, 2 November 2021 (UTC)Reply


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Lead guitar vs. rhythm guitar

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Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

@SunriseLaguna: Hi, I'm Oroborvs. I saw your last change in the Members section, you changed Joe Duplantier as the lead guitarist. Where did you get this information? I always had a doubt; when I started expanding the page he was already described as "rhythm guitar" and Andreu as "lead guitarist". Oroborvs (talk) 14:31, 2 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Legacy: TesseracT and Spiritbox

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Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

I've removed these two bands from the influences as the cited articles were only noting some similarities in the opinion of the authors of the article and were not directly reporting on influences. The other bands listed here have citations where one or the other band member is directly confirming the influence in an interview. Feel free to reintroduce these two with better citations that directly mention influence. I tried looking for some but couldn't find any. -Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 18:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ujwal.Xankill3r: The "Gojira-esque pick scrape technique" in Spiritbox music says it all, and Acle Kahney of TesseracT literally said that Gojira and Meshuggah had influenced their album Sonder by touring with them. Oroborvs (talk) 20:30, 29 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Oroborvs: the pick-scrape observation is not a confirmation of influence (there are other bands that have done pick scrapes even pre-Gojira). That said I'm ambivalent about the way you have rephrased it in the edit to make it clear that it was an observation by an independent commentator and not a confirmation of influence from the band itself. I think that's good enough for me, although I do imagine that some other editors may raise a stink about the notability of the claim. Thank you for updating the TesseracT claim with a better citation. -Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 06:34, 30 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Ujwal.Xankill3r: About Spiritbox: Guitar World is a published source. About Tesseract: it's a straight quote from an interview taken from MusicRadar. Guitar World and MusicRadar are reliable via WP:RSINSTRUMENTS. Also, I recommend not to edit the text (please) as an administrator has done copy editing over the entire article [8]; he also saw the wikilinks. Oroborvs (talk) 13:28, 30 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

GA Review

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Latest comment: 2 years ago71 comments3 people in discussion
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This review is transcluded from Talk:Gojira (band)/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 16:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)Reply


Reviewing now. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

First comments

  • By then, the Duplantier brothers were playing in metal bands which they had started two years earlier. – But you never give a date in that section! And: Was "Gojira" one of these metal bands?
  • Hmm, that's complicated and we have a contradiction in sources. It's not public knowledge when exactly the band formed - judging from the age of the brothers, it was around 1995-1996, and the band had a name in 1996 according to a source. But for the band to have been playing in it for two years and have the name chosen by '96 is impossible for the age that is given here. Honestly, I think it is not a necessary detail and I have done away with it for now. If you have another opinion or request, please let me know. dannymusiceditor oops 23:00, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
I was mostly concerned with text flow ("then" and "two years earlier" vaguely indicate some timeline but no point in time they ultimately relate to). But if this is all there is, this is ok. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:28, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Hi. Your questioning is due to the way the information is written. The dates before 1996 are unknown, all we know is their age, so I followed the information available. Gojira always only gave the date 1996, no date 1994 or 1995 was mentioned in interviews, that's why I never liked having a section that precedes that of (1996−2002) and I chose to mention it that way. The first paragraph is the imminent stage of creating the band Godzilla, brothers Joe and Mario Duplantier were aged 19 and 14, respectively. In source 7, Joe Duplantier said: He [Mario] started a band when he was 12 years old, and I was 17. (This is why I wrote: By then, the Duplantier brothers were playing in metal bands which they had started two years earlier.) Duplantier gives the information that they were playing in pre-Godzilla bands and still during the creation of the latter: They were 10 times better than my band at the time. The first time he touched the drums, he was very, very good. He was better than the drummer I had at the time. So after school, I would jam with him. And we started to have our own band on the side called Godzilla [Gojira is Godzilla's Japanese name]. That is why I found this little piece of information about the pre-Godzilla period relevant, because it's very old, very underground, and it shows that the Duplantier brothers had little experience before 1996, at a very young age. DannyMusicEditor, do you think that a section (1994-1996) is necessary? --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • I made a passage at the very beginning of the article, reshaped in chronological order. I wrote "Background and formation" as a sub-section title, and it corresponds to the Joe Duplantier interview, who gave no pre-1996 dates, only their ages.--Oroborvs (talk) 16:54, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  •   Done Finally, I added a range of dates before 1996, after a day of questioning and trying several options. The subsection Background and formation (1993−1996) improves the text flow and chronology and it is no longer vague. --Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • In March 2004, the band played with Loudblast, No Return, Scarve, The Old Dead Tree and Garwall at La Locomotive in Montmartre.[33] A reviewer described the Gojira concert as "timed, with millimeter precision, of a phenomenal power ... With a gigantic sound! ... the Landais cataclysm has just struck at La Locomotive".[34] The Swiss grindcore band Nostromo toured with them. – Is that touring with Nostromo a separate event? If so, it lacks context?
  • The former GA review noted that "The prose is really challenging", and I, too, think that the red thread is not always clear (examples above). Did you attempt to rectify the issues mentioned in the previous review?
  • I sent it to WP:GOCE prior to GA nomination. I also cleaned up some areas myself throughout the waiting period. Not only have we attempted to rectify the issues, but the article went over a complete overhaul - see the diffs between now and the time it was delisted. Oroborvs and I would be happy to iron out any and every prose issue, but as noted in the nomination, their native language is French, so it may not be perfect first read. dannymusiceditor oops 22:37, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Because the sources are French; there are subtleties in both languages. I must add details to make it easier for you to read and I will take into consideration what you indicated below. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • The use of announcements from "Blabbermouth" appears to be the main reason why the article was previously delisted as GA. I still see plenty of references to that website. Can you demonstrate a consensus that this meets WP:reliable sources? What about the other sources that have been previously questioned?
  • Blabbermouth is a long-accepted and perfectly reliable online outlet for heavy metal news. The article's delisting had little to do with the use of that source in particular and was much more because there were a variety of unreliable sources or an outright lack of any, not to mention the article was not as comprehensive as it should have been. Drmies had a personal dislike of the source material, but it is regularly and routinely used on Wikipedia. dannymusiceditor oops 22:37, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Some sentences seem like excessive detail to me, e.g. The album was available for streaming on the band's official YouTube channel two days before its release. – I think it would be easier to read if it would be more concise (see also WP:audience); and you have the album articles after all for the details, where interested people can read them. Some sections are extremely long, and I think that people would rather appreciate concise summary style in this overview article, since reading the whole thing at this length simply takes a lot of energy. Can I have your point of view on this, too? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:45, 5 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • I would rather present a densely detailed article and discuss what to cut/streamline than be short-handed. I realize it is very long, but cutting material is easier than building. If you'd like to do it a section at a time, I'd be happy to wait. I'm here to do what needs to be done. dannymusiceditor oops 23:29, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • The first two sections have valuable information that only French sources can provide; that's what I can tell you. This sentence is not so necessary, I could delete it: The album was available for streaming on the band's official YouTube channel two days before its release. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • and supported Cannibal Corpse, Edge of Sanity, Impaled Nazarene, and Immortal in France in September of that year.[11][15] – is this a single gig, or a tour? The following sentence speaks of "the" Immortal tour, so this is it? But then, the other bands would support as well? This could be made clearer I think.
  • Godzilla opened for Immortal on a French tour. Regarding the other bands, by inference, Godzilla could only open in France for Cannibal Corpse, Edge of Sanity, and Impaled Nazarene which were established bands. I will improve the sentence. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  •   Done. Godzilla opened for each of these bands; there is no more info than that. I added that Godzilla opened for Immortal during a ten-date tour in France.--Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • "[t]he door was clearly closed" – if this is an translation of a French quote, then how can there be a "t" missing? Just wondering.
  • I fear I don't understand – in many other places, you start the quotes with an upper case letter in the mid of a sentence, e.g. their sound and music was "A mixture of Metallica and Gojira". And this is ok. But why masking the "t" here, instead of just writing "The door was clearly closed"? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:01, 8 January 2022 (UTC
  •   Done I saw this on an article, I thought it was less ugly than the original capital letter in the middle of the sentence, hence the brackets, because I modified the original quote. The copy-editor did not touch the [t]. But since it's questionable, I decided to remove these brackets. --Oroborvs (talk) 23:18, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  •  I knew I read this somewhere; MOS:CONFORM: It is not normally necessary to explicitly note changes in capitalization. However, for more precision, the altered letter may be put inside square brackets: "The" → "[t]he".--Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • their way out was to develop a structure – "structure" can mean anything; is there a more specific word? "was to built up their own infrastructure" or something?
  • Instead structure themselves, develop beyond a band, a stronger framework, by creating their own label Gabriel Editions. I didn't know how a native English would write it. Words don't necessarily have the same weight in both languages; it is a bit delicate sometimes. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  •   Partly done: I changed it to: their way out was to consider an independent framework. I hope it is understandable.--Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Quotes always need to be attributed. Some are not, so we don't know who said that:
    • "The album "made significant waves"
    • "to produce [their] music from A to Z"
    • "just five days' break"
    • "on the computer in the tour bus"
  • master ... the grind parts – does the ellipsis need brackets ([…]) if they are not part of the quote? Also appears in other quotes. See WP:Quotations.
  • Le Florida – I wasn't sure what this is, it seems to be a band. Write "The Agen-based band Le Florida" or something similar for clarity?
  • Joe Duplantier, absorbed by other worlds and dimensions and the contemplation of outer space, devoted his time to reading The Celestine Prophecy and books by Baird T. Spalding and other spiritual seekers. – Sentence seems a bit out of place where it is, or is it somehow related to the album?
    It's about the songwriting and the thematic of From Mars to Sirius. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • he said, "Gojira wants to work with people whose approach is sincere" – Who is "he"? Still Labadie?
  • (who represented Ghost, Mastodon, Slayer,[103] Iron Maiden, Metallica, and Guns N' Roses) – to me, this really feels like too much detail, I get the impression that this is only there to underline the importance of this guy. What does "represented" exactly mean, in any case?
    Yes, because there's no blue link for "John Jackson". The French source stated: John Jackson, an English agent who manages Metallica, Iron Maiden, Guns'n'Roses and produces concerts for Landais abroad. It was to demonstrate that he is known on the metal scene. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • On Metacritic, L'Enfant Sauvage received a low review score of 70 (out of 100) and a high review score of 100 – I don't get this, two separate review scores?
  • The band again toured worldwide – this needs a date I think.
  • On 20 December 2016, Philadelphia's Electric Factory announced a "massive outdoor metal show" with Gojira, Opeth, Mastodon, Eagles of Death Metal, the Devin Townsend Project and Russian Circles for 6 May 2017 – Something I also noted in other places; I think such announcements are not ideal. They take events out of chronology, and the reader is always unsure "did this actually happen or was it only announced?". I would recommend to simply list the performances in chronological order when they took place.
  • Their performance at Hellfest 2019 was made available for streaming on YouTube in November 2020.[205] – Excessive detail.
  • I'm not entirely sure I agree with Jens on this one, official entire live performances on YouTube are not common. I suppose it wouldn't hurt too much, but I would see why it was in here to begin with and would not disagree that it was pertinent information. dannymusiceditor oops 06:28, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • On 2 March 2004, a demonstration called Avis de KO Social (Social Knockout Notice) was organized – does that mean organized by Gojira?
    No, it was organized by different organizations, which help people such as the unemployed, right to housing, rights of foreigners, Greenpeace, Human Rights League, Act Up, Save the Research, Coordination of Intermittent Workers, the Sud Education Unions, the Magistrate's Union, Amuhf (emergency hospital staff). Gojira were invited. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  •   Done. I completed the sentence: a demonstration called Avis de KO Social (Social Knockout Notice) was organized by voluntary associations, labor unions, and NGOs to discuss.--Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • The Duplantier brothers formed Empalot (an avant-garde metal–jazz fusion–funk rock band) – its an essential information, I don't think it should be in brackets.
  • In (early) 2003 – again, the brackets don't make sense to me; either "In early 2003" or "In 2003".
  • "early" is not sourced on the article. I found this info in a source not necessarily reliable, but to me, it corresponds to the period before the release of their second album (The Link). At some point, I did not know anymore if I should keep "early" or not. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
But the reader can't guess why you put it in brackets. I don't think they fulfill the intended function; instead they confuse. If "early" can be unequivocally derived from the sources based on simple math or logic, it is ok to keep it; if not, better remove. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:36, 9 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Three Jurassic-era brittle star fossils, Ophiogojira labadiei, Ophiogojira andreui, and Ophioduplantiera noctiluca, were named after band members; the Royal Society said that their genus was named in honour of Gojira – I doubt that the Royal Society "said" this (I doubt the source is precise here). The scientific paper is scheduled to be published in a Royal Society journal, but there, the authors of the paper provide this information, but they are not most probably not members of the Royal Society. Also note that the paper is not yet published, so these species do not exist yet officially. The preprint of the paper, containing this information, is here: [9].
My main issue here is that the quote was wrongly attributed to the Royal Society, when it should be attributed to Ben Thuy and colleagues (to be published). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:49, 8 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Closing note: Thanks for all the fixes, looking good! One small suggestion is to replace "framework" with "infrastructure", but I leave this decision to you. Promoting now. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Jens Lallensack: and @DannyMusicEditor: Thank you very much for your patience and all you have done to help the article reach GA status. I have no doubt that "infrastructure" is a better word.   --Oroborvs (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
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