Talk:Goldsworthy Gurney

Copyvio

The first four edits of this article are a copyvio from [1].

I've left a message on User talk:Benjaminevans82 and emailed the source site to see whether they're happy to let it go, or whether they want it removed. And I've subedited some of the article and added a reasonable amount of new PD content. I'll remove the remainder of the copyvio text if the site owner does not respond, or responds negitively; and update this note if I hear back in the positive. --Tagishsimon (talk)

And got a positive reply (and we do comply with their wishes, in our External links section):

20-Aug-2006 21:53

"Thank you for bringing to our attention about the text copied from the Goldsworthy Gurney webpage on our Internet website.

We do not mind if text is used elsewhere from our website as long as it is credited as being copied from our website and due acknowledgement is given to our website with the URL address.

Webmaster

CIBSE Heritage Group

and

22-Aug-2006 23:07

I have no objections to you using the Patent images from our website as long as you give due credit to the Website and the source of the information as the British Library Patents Office.

Regards

Webmaster

Table of Contents

Does anyone know why there is a "" command on this page? --Benjaminevans82 15:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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What his ancestors supposedly were doing 8 centuries earlier

The immediate family of him provides useful context, but unreferenced claims about what they were doing centuries before does not. WP:NOTGENEALGOY. Agricolae (talk) 22:26, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

There are two aspects to this, both relevant here.

The first is that the UK (even more so before the 19th century) was controlled by the descendants of those who were ennobled by the Norman Conquest. As I put it Half of the country is owned by people whose only claim to fame is that they have traceable ancestors going that far back. You removed this section, as you seem to have confused it with the non-notable "Half of the people claim to have ancestors going that far back." – quite a different situation. He was a "One percenter" in modern terms, and that gave him entry to a world of "society", the royal palace, and the ability to marry into money by horse-trading a family name to give breeding to a modern fortune.

More importantly, we really do need to clear up his relation to the Gurney family, the Norwich branch, and by their wealth hugely influential at this time. This isn't just genealogy for the sake of it, it's a key part of who he was, his place in society and his connection to the wealthy and influential.

It wouldn't hurt either to clarify his name Goldsworthy as just being a not uncommon given name in Cornwall. There is a persistent misunderstanding in Bristol (the article is also generally weak on his Bristol connections, particularly through the Pneumatic Institution and his countryman Davy) that he was involved with the Goldney family and Goldney Hall. While there was a commercial connection (it was hard to avoid one, the Goldney fortunes being extensive and involved in early engineering work of the time) there wasn't a family one. Yet the myth (like that of Elizabeth Fry, who was at least a Gurney, and her minor links to Bristol) persists locally. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:39, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

The English landholding class certainly pretended that was the case, but many of these claims have been shown to have been the result of various kinds of 'creative genealogy'. We don't need to fall into their trap and likewise pretend that such claims made any of them notable. Their notability for us depends on who they were as individuals, within their immediate context. As to the importance of showing their relationship to the other family that happened to have the same surname, are you aware of any biographer of Goldsworthy Gurney who decides it is worthwhile to to provide this information (and no, Burke's doesn't count as a biographer)? Obviously you think it is important, and I don't, so is there a reliable source to establish whether or not it is noteworthy to include it? (Oh, and a modern source is preferable - you may note that the new articles in ODNB don't really feel the need to express someone's origins back to the mists of time, as did some Victorian biographers and their American contemporaries). Again as to his given name, do you have a source that explicitly gives its origin, that feels this is something noteworthy, or would this require an editor to reach their own conclusion? Agricolae (talk) 19:54, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm pretty familiar with engineering history, and engineers, of this period. This Gurney is widely assumed to have an unstated connection to the Norwich Gurneys, although I can't source this offhand. Either way, we ought to state that, once suitable sources are excavated. Certainly the Norwich Gurneys have a very well documented Norman origin. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:52, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I would suggest that if this is just a wide assumption that there must have been some unstated connection, but no evidence, exactly how important can the connection have been? If he started his career based on money from the other branch of the family, or even documented social connections even though we don't know the precise relationship, then it is surely relevant, but if this is just a matter of 'he has the same surname as a gentry family, so he must have been related to them somehow', that would appear to be neither verifiable nor an important enough factor in his life to be noteworthy. Agricolae (talk) 22:06, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

So do some of the legwork yourself. You have zero contributions to this article, until you rocked up and started filleting it. Lose the attitude. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:22, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

No, I will not take responsibility for researching your rumours. As to 'losing the attitude', that is rich coming from someone who refers to the removal of one single sentence from your beloved article as "filleting it". Now that we have had our little 'moment', maybe we can we get back to discussing the article. Agricolae (talk) 00:02, 8 September 2018 (UTC)