Talk:Goofy/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Request for Comment: What is Goofy?

What is the best way to describe Goofy?

• A: A dog
  • A1: a "dog" or "a cartoon dog"
  • A2: an "anthropomorphic dog"
  • A3: other (dog)
• B: A non-dog
  • B1: an "anthropomorphic animal"
  • B2: an "anthropomorphic character with some doglike features" or maybe "anthropomorphic character with both human and dog features"
  • B3: a "dogface character"
  • B4: other (non-dog)

Herostratus (talk) 13:30, 20 December 2021 (UTC) Added later per a cogent comment: B1 could be "zoomorphized human" instead. Somewhat similar, but means human-with-animal-characteristics rather than animal-with-human-characteristics; if B1 wins the day we can figure out then which is best/most popular I guess. Herostratus (talk) 19:24, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Survey

• A2: An anthropomorphic dog. This is how we introduce all anthropomorphic animal characters, many of which are basically human in animal skins, and we shouldn't make an exception for Goofy. The sources describing Goofy as a "half man half dog" don't contradict this. Goofy is anthropomorphic like other members of the Disney core cast, but we don't call them "human-like with [insert animal]-characteristics". With that said, I'd be willing to compromise and label Goofy "an anthropomorphic dog or dogface" in the lead. So A2 or A2+B3 LittleJerry (talk) 14:21, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
• A2: An anthropomorphic dog. Mickey is a mouse, Minnie is a mouse, Donald and Daisy are ducks, Horace is a horse, Clarabella is a cow, Pete is a cat (nowadays), Oswald is a rabbit; all these are anthropomorphic, unlike Pluto. Simple Wikipedia doesn't have a problem recognizing that these characters are humanized versions of the animals they represent, in the tradition of talking animals in fairy tales and fables. Pluto and Goofy share the same facial features representing dogs in Disney's visual style, with Pluto being a pet and Goofy being a human-like character; thus, anthropomorphic dog. Diego (talk) 15:16, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
• A2 per the above. To the extent Dogfaces (comics) should be mentioned (and it probably should since the article claims Goofy is the most prominent example), it should come later in the lead or just be in the article body. It's not a term that means anything to anyone but a certain class of Disney geek. PS: That article should be moved to Dogface (comics), per WP:SINGULAR. PPS: This article could probably use a section on the disputation about what Goofy is, given the thread above versus the fact that his surname is, in two of several variations, "Dawg", i.e. Dog, and people have argued about it for a long time (even famously, e.g. in a scene in Stand by Me). This would be a good place to explain what a "dogface" is and that they're common in Disney material.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:36, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

  I concur, explaining the controversy about what kind of animal is Goofy should definitely be a subsection in the article. We already have material to write it in the above previous talk. This would be a benefit brought about by this discussion. Diego (talk) 15:44, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

• A2 per the above and, with all due respect, obviously. To be clear: all the characters mentioned by Diego are anthropomorphic animals, except Pluto, who's an actual (cartoon) dog. I'm often amazed to see what pops up on the RfC announcement pages, and this one did it to me again. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 15:41, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
• B4, second choice B3/B2/B1. Just not A. Just don't mention Goofy's species. In my last version the article stated "Goofy is tall, has facial features of a dog, typically wears a turtle neck..." which is both accurate and true to the source. Bill Farmer is the most authoritative source we have on the matter and he literally said "He's not a dog". Saying that he is is original research. convinced by Mx. Granger — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 18:56, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
• B1. In my house, he's not a dog, and anyone who doesn't agree can eat in the kitchen. He's a "dogface" and as that article says "Dogfaces usually resemble cartoon human beings, but with some special characteristics". If Goofy is a dog, what is Pluto? Who are Lady and the Tramp? Dogs too? Isn't that stretching "dog" a bit much? I just added some sources below of which the most authoritative are Goofy's creator and his long-time voice, and they say he's not a dog.

Ultimately there's no way to prove it either way, it is opinion. His creator says he's not a dog, and that might matter some, but it's not definitive since creators are often not the best people to describe their own creations (f Thomas Wolfe describes a trunk full of notebooks as a "novel", so what, it's still not, etc.). In any case, we should be conservative I think and not come down on one side or the other of the Eternal Question. "Anthropomorphic animal" includes "Anthropomorphic dog" so it's definitely accurate, just broader. Let the reader decide if he's a dog (if she cares), there's even a picture to help that, let's not lead her to any foregone conclusion.

One other thing, whatever is done, we should link to Dogfaces (comics) but pipe it so it doesn't appear on the page (unless B3 is adopted). It's a very useful link, but the term itself is obscure and usually refers to WWII GI's I think, so it would just confuse. Herostratus (talk) 19:15, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

• A2 Goofy is very much an anthropormophic dog, in the same way that Mickey Mouse is an anthropormophic mouse. Both of their bodies are mostly human (Mickey does have a tail), with the exception of their faces, which shows their animal characteristics. Isabelle ^🔔 16:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
• A2 is the clearest. Per WP:V, we should base articles on "reliable, independent, published sources". Art Babbitt and Bill Farmer (quoted below) are not independent from the subject, so we should look for other sources. I did some searching for academic sources and found these:
  • "A dog in Disney cartoons." The Oxford Companion to Children's Literature
  • "a fictional, anthropomorphic dog" MedSurg Nursing
  • "a clumsy antropomorphic dog" Americana E-Journal of American Studies in Hungary
  • "les chiens Pluto et Goofy" (translation: "the dogs Pluto and Goofy") Esprit

Whether "MedSurg Nursing" is a reliable source for info about cartoon characters I don't know, but I think The Oxford Companion to Children's Literature seems like a very high-quality source for this topic. I also came across this Snopes article which calls Goofy a "beloved Disney dog". All of these sources call Goofy a dog or an anthropomorphic dog, and I didn't find any that call him an "anthropomorphic animal" or a "dogface character". By the way, I support discussing the controversy in the article if it can be sourced. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 15:20, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

• A2 - This is what the sources most commonly call him, so that's what wikipedia should say as well. We reflect the sources. In response to some of the discussion below, we can't use "zoomorphic" even if you argue it is more technically correct, because no sources use that word. Responding to above, we can't use dogface for the same reason (and dogface seems to not be a standard term anyway). Fieari (talk) 00:28, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
• A2. Per Mx. Granger. Stick to what the sources say. --Elonka 05:26, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
• B2 He seems to do human-like things, in comparison to Pluto, who does not seem sentient. Royal Autumn Crest (talk) 00:08, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

  Perhaps it would enhance the persuasiveness or your argument if you looked up sentience and reworded your !vote. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 00:40, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

  Perhaps you could reword your statement. Royal Autumn Crest (talk) 01:07, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

  I see no need to reword, as I'm not making any kind of attack (and I'm sorry you seem to feel that way). I just think you're missing your target because you have misused or mistyped a word. Pluto's obvious sentient, so probably you meant something else than what you wrote. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 09:50, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Conversation

Here are some sources, cribbed from the above conversation. Art Babbitt, here:

It is true that there is a vague similarity in the construction of the Goof’s head and Pluto’s. The use of the eyes, mouth and ears are entirely different. One is dog, the other human.

Bill Farmer, here:

He is not a dog. Pluto is a dog, but Goofy seems to be in the canine family in the same way that a wolf is not a dog, but they also are in the canine family. I think Canis Goofus is the technical Latin term for what Goofy is. He’s just Goofy.

Here (no byline) we have

Goofy was created as a human character, as opposed to Pluto, who was a pet, so he walked upright and had a speaking voice.

But then, Goofy's original incarnation was named Dawg, and "Goofus D. Dawg" has been used recently. [Here, we have one Rachel Berman including Goofy in a list of 54 Disney dogs along with Lady and the Tramp and so forth.

And of course the famous scene in in Stand By Me (edited) shows that the question has vexed humanity for some time:

Gordie : Alright, alright, Mickey's a mouse, Donald's a duck, Pluto's a dog. What's Goofy?
Teddy : Goofy's a dog. He's definitely a dog.
Chris : He can't be a dog. He drives a car and wears a hat.

Vern : Oh, God. That's weird. What the hell is Goofy?

And I'm sure there are other sources. Herostratus (talk) 18:52, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

• Anthropomorphize means "to attribute human form or personality to things not human". In the event a non-animal character (in the "living thing that is not a human being or plant" sense of animal, so including humans, plants and inanimate objects) has an animal head and nothing else (otherwise human body, human behavior, human sound, can't talk to animals, etc), it's not an anthropomorphized animal. It's a zoomorphized human. What Goofy actually is will be a source of debate for decades to come (I'm with Farmer: Canis Goofus), but we have no sufficiently authoritative source to say he's a dog. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 18:56, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Excellent point. The only downside is that "zoomorphized" is not a very common word, and "anthropomorphized" is more common. Herostratus (talk) 19:24, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

We could link zoomorphism to help with that. As we are not Simple English Wikipedia and there is no more common term we probably shouldn't refrain from using it when appropriate. Whether it's appropriate to use this term for Goofy is to be determined, but it's more appropriate than anthropomorphism. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:28, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

OK, your points are all good. I remain a B1 voter, but I'll move to neutral on the anthropomorphic/zoomorphic. Anthropomorphic because it's more famililar (linking takes at least a few readers off the page to learn a new word, which interrupts flow) and also I haven't seen any source use "zoomorphic" so that's kind of original research. And it doesn't follow common practice here. On the other hand, zoomorphic is more correct I think, and being correct matters a good deal. Herostratus (talk) 22:03, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

N.B. for comparison, the Beagle Boys are actually named "Beagle" but have zero dog characteristics other than an animal-like (not necessary doglike) black nose. Their ears, haircuts, mouths, etc, are entirely human. Even less doglike than Goofy, they are described as "Anthropomorphic dog or dogface" in their article and their name supports this. Just a data point. Herostratus (talk) 19:47, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Herostratus, then again, Beagle is also a surname and the character naming follows that. Unlikely to be a total coincidence but still. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:21, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

• Bill Farmer is just speculating and giving his opinion. Goofy is Disney's character not his. If we take his word then we should call Goofy an anthropomorphic canine. Art Babbit is merely stating that Goofy fills the role of a human as opposed to a pet like Pluto (and contrary to popular belief he did not create the character). You guys are taking off-hand comments waaaay to seriously. LittleJerry (talk) 19:54, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Farmer didn't say "anthropomorphic" so that's OR. (but I'll give you that it's better than outright calling him a dog) — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:22, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

It's true (I think) that as I pointed out, a creator's opinion is less important than you think, but neither is it nothing. It's a data point in favor of not-a-dog I think. Herostratus (talk) 22:03, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Herostratus, indeed if the creator's opinion is obviously bollocks it's irrelevant. But when there is no definitive answer (which is the case here), directly contradicting the creator's opinion would be OR. LittleJerry, the opinion of the people who actually shaped the character (which includes both visual artists and voice actors) generally has more relevance than what the copyright holder says. If Jeff Bezos bought Goofy and claimed he's a cow that wouldn't make it so. It needs to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, but all else being equal the opinion of those who shaped the character is more important. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 22:47, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

The cartoons themselves confirm that Goofy is a dog. The Paul Rudish Mickey cartoons "Dog Show" and "Easy Street" play on Goofy and Pluto both being dogs. And if creator opinion are important then Walt Disney himself has stated "When people laugh at Mickey Mouse it's because he's so human; and that is the secret of his popularity." LittleJerry (talk) 01:40, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

• Looking over the dogface article, I think a case can be made for its deletion. It relies on only one relevant reliable third-party source (the other doesn't mention them) for one sentence and the rest is mainly original research. The term exists mainly in fandom and does not reach Wikipedia's standards of Notability. LittleJerry (talk) 16:56, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

LittleJerry, I'll review this and open an AfD discussion if appropriate. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 22:47, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't do that, User:Alexis Jazz. I looked, and there aren't any more real sources online (or maybe anywhere), but 1) It's pretty clear that the definition given in the article is accurate, and 2) it's clear that term is used generally in the comics fan community to a notable extent I think.

It's true that we can't go "Well, here and here and here are examples of people using the term sufficient to demonstrate some notability" (maybe we should be able to), but still. It is at least a bit notable in real-life-meatspace, and the definition is correct, and its not really contentious or contested. (Here is a whole page at TV Tropes which I believe we don't use, but still, it's accurate. So I'd recommend going after other articles. Herostratus (talk) 19:49, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

• Isabelle Belato, unlike Goofy, Mickey frequently wears no upper garment even when that would be inappropriate for humans, Mickey is small, has (as you mentioned) a tail, has no neck, and he has a high squeaky voice. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 22:47, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

  @Alexis Jazz: Aside from the tail, I don't really see how Goofy's other characteristics are different enough from Mickey's that they should be described differently. It's not uncommon for anthropomorphic characters in the same universe to have different characteristics like that (such as some having thumbs and other wings or paws, long necks and no necks etc.). Isabelle ^🔔 00:15, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Mickey barely resembles a real mouse. Compare him to other Disney mice such as Timothy Q. Mouse and the Rescuers, No flattened ears, fully furred, rodent teethed and actually mouse-sized. LittleJerry (talk) 01:40, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

And the mouse in Dumbo. Herostratus (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Herostratus, its almost a week and we have eight in favor of A2 and Alexis Jazz has withdrawn their support for B4. I think we're ready to close. LittleJerry (talk) 20:27, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

• Absolutely. --Herostratus (talk) 03:39, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2022

72.80.107.49 (talk) 03:24, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Look it up wiki Goofy is a cow. Not a dog.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 03:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)