Talk:Gran Valira

Correct name is Gran Valira

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Ucucha 17:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

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• There is no river in Andorra called "Valira". The largest river is called the Gran Valira. 91.187.66.243 (talk) 19:03, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Evidence? — AjaxSmack 02:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Discussion follows below (I would have replied here, but for some reason I didn't see your question before I replied). 91.187.66.243 (talk) 01:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• Neutral Weak Oppose Without evidence or an explanation I fall back onto WP:ENGLISH for this one. But I an willing to change if the name is shown to be the most prominent in English.--Labattblueboy (talk) 12:59, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The river appears to be broken into the North Valira River and East Valira River, both being tributaries of the Valira, or Gran Valira. Andorra by Byron Augustin[1] provided a good overview of the river in pages 8-13, but refers to it as the Valira river not Gran Valira. Merriam-Webster's geographical dictionary uses Gran Valira as does the Lonely Planets 2007 Spain guide I have here at home. I remain sceptical because every other wikipedia uses Valira, but I'll remain neutral. Frankly, the article contains so little information that this discussion seems almost irrelevance. --Labattblueboy (talk) 06:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Comment — "Gran Valira" is the official name used on local maps of Andorra published by the Andorran Government, as well as on tourist maps of Andorra written in the English language, published by the Andorran Ministry of Tourism, and the guide to Andorra (p.4), published by the Andorran Government's Department of Statistics.

"Valira" is ambiguous because there are three main rivers in Andorra with Valira in their names: the Valira del Nord, the Valira d'Orient, and the Gran Valira. The printed maps are in copyright and cannot be copied here, but the same dataset is used on Google Maps showing the Gran Valira and the other Valiras too.

It is fair to say many internet sources are not particularly reliable and do not distinguish between the different Valira rivers in Andorra. I'm not sure what the best solution is. 91.187.66.243 (talk) 01:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to the guide to Andorra. I'm still curious as to why the usage on other interwikis (ca:Valira, es:Valira, fr:Valira) doesn't reflect this. What is the usage in Spain where the river flows for roughly half its length? The Spanish article implies that the name "Gran Valira" is only used in Escaldes-Engordany. — AjaxSmack 20:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I too am curious about the usages on other wikis and in Spain. fr:Valira is a direct translation of es:Valira and is almost identical to it. Both articles state that the name of the river in Andorra after the confluence of the Valira del Nord and the Valira d'Orient in Escaldes-Engordany is Gran Valira (Spanish) / Grand Valira (French). I don't see anything in es:Valira that says the name Gran Valira is only used in Escaldes-Engordany; I think it says it is the name of the river after Escaldes-Engordany. The creator of es:Valira also created es:Gran Valira. I think the distinction between the Valira and Gran Valira made in the content of all of these articles, albeit not in their titles, is identical to that made by the Andorran Government in its maps. By contrast, ca:Valira makes no distinction between Valira and Gran Valira, and perhaps this is not surprising (see next paragraph for why) given that it appears from its editing history to have been written by Spaniards, not by Andorrans. There is of course no Andorran wiki.

Regarding the usage in Spain — more specifically in Catalonia — there is a popular series of Spanish maps published in Spain by Rando Éditions. The latest December 2001 edition of their 1:50000 map of Andorra–Cadí based on survey data of the Institut Cartogràfic de Catalunya (an institution of the Catalan Government, the Generalitat de Catalunya) uses Valira both for the Spanish part of the river in Alt Urgell and for the Andorran parts of the river up to the Escaldes-Engordany confluence. Whether this is the result of a printing error, ignorance of the Andorran names, or Spanish custom is not clear and needs further investigation. 91.187.66.243 (talk) 01:25, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The Spanish Berga 1:200000 geological map of the area, calls it Rio Valira, without any "Gran". It marks the branches as mentioned above and other smaller tributories. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Is that map published in English or Spanish? And do you have the full title of the map? Per WP:ENGLISH, we should prefer English-language sources in determining what is the common name. 91.187.66.243 (talk) 00:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

We should use English language sources if they exist. In the case of this river, where English language sources will be limited, and usually produced by those for whom English is not their native language, we need to look at all sources. Skinsmoke (talk) 13:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

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Summary of reliable sources

English-language sources — country of publication

1. English (Andorra) The Guide to Andorra (p.4), published in English by the Andorran Government's Department of Statistics, uses the name "Gran Valira" to refer to the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and it does not mention any name for the 12km length of the river inside Spain.
2. English (Andorra) The tourist maps published in English by the Andorran Government's Ministry of Tourism use the name "Gran Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and they do not cover the 12km length of the river inside Spain.
3. English (USA) Google Maps uses the name "Gran Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and no other name is shown for the 12km length of the river inside Spain from the Andorra–Spain border to the La Seu d'Urgell confluence with the Segre.

Non-English-language sources — language (country of publication)

1. Catalan (Andorra) 1:50000 map and other scales including 1:2500, Andorran Government's Ministry of Town Planning, latest edition 2009, uses the name "Gran Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and they do not cover the 12km length of the river inside Spain.
2. Catalan (Spain) 1:50000 map of Andorra–Cadí, Rando Éditions, December 2001, uses the name "Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and also for the 12km length of the river inside Spain from the Andorra–Spain border to the La Seu d'Urgell confluence with the Segre.
3. Catalan (Spain) 1:200000 geological map, Berga, uses "Valira" for the 12km length of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border, and also for the 12km length of the river inside Spain from the Andorra–Spain border to the La Seu d'Urgell confluence with the Segre.

Please add additional reliable sources in the appropriate sections above using the same format.

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The main difference between these reliable sources concerns the name of the river inside Andorra from the Escaldes-Engordany confluence to the Andorra–Spain border. Official Andorran Government sources published in English and Google Maps say "Gran Valira". These sources seem to me to take precedence per WP:ENGLISH over Spanish sources published in Catalan or Spanish that use the name "Valira" for the 12km length of river inside Andorra. If the article is re-titled "Gran Valira", it should probably mention "Valira" as being the Spanish name. What do other editors think? 91.187.66.243 (talk) 00:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support I think I would generally agree with you on this. Clearly there is a difference between Andorran and Spanish/Catalan useage. This appears to be down to the fact that Andorrans need to disambiguate and explain which Valira they are referring to, whereas this is not necessary in Spain/Catalunya as there is only the one Valira they could be referring to. As a global encyclopaedia, we need to disambiguate (no doubt somebody will eventually write something about the other Valiras), and Gran Valira seems the obvious way to do this. May as well go the whole hog, and have Valira list the other Andorran rivers while we're at it. Skinsmoke (talk) 13:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Renamed without consensus

Please restore the article name to "Gran Valira" per the longstanding consensus above. The article was renamed unilaterally without any discussion by Jordiferrer (talk · contribs) who asserted that "Simply 'Valira' is the common name. See interwikis" without citing any reliable sources. 194.158.75.125 (talk) 01:19, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

 Fixed I restored the article to version decided by 2010 consensus. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:56, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. 194.158.75.125 (talk) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. Please remember (and assume) that it may have been an honest mistake on the other user's part, and that maybe they didn't see the discussion. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:00, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I am assuming WP:GOODFAITH, and I think it was almost certainly an honest mistake. Regards, 194.158.75.125 (talk) 02:56, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

You are right. I was not aware of this discussion when I renamed it. --Jordiferrer (talk) 08:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Assessment

Altered to a start class. Suprising how undeveloped this article is, given its importance to Andorra. Maps are available on commons at Atlas. Jokulhlaup (talk) 17:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Rename

I reverted the renaming of this article to Grand Valira River as it was not discussed, nor did it take into account the naming discussions above, assumed that the 2010 naming consensus was not seen before the move...Jokulhlaup (talk) 15:06, 28 June 2014 (UTC)