Talk:Grand Duchess Natalya Alexeyevna of Russia

Requested move 6 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved as proposed. There is a narrow consensus after a long listing period that the disambiguators given are sufficient, albeit with a bit of chit chat. The separate proposal to amend the spelling didn't find consensus and was not widely considered, but editors are welcome to propose that separately as a fresh RM.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:00, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

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• Grand Duchess Natalya Alexeyevna of Russia (1714–1728) → Grand Duchess Natalya Alexeyevna of Russia
• Natalya Alexeyevna of Russia → Tsarevna Natalya Alexeyevna of Russia

– To make a more natural disambiguation. Only two Romanov dynasts with the name Natalya Alexeyevna but one was the daughter of an emperor while the other one was a granddaughter so they held different titles, the daughter omits tsarevna as a prefix in the title even though some other female dynasts have it in their article's name while the granddaughter uses years of birth and death in the article's name to disambiguate, I feel the proposed moves make for an intuitive and natural disambiguation that's preferable to the current titles. Killuminator (talk) 13:37, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Support - Different titles, no need for any other form of disambiguation. The older Natalya Alexeyevna was the daughter of a Tsar, not an Emperor, so her life predated the use of the grand ducal titles by descendants of Russian monarchs. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:55, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Comment The second move might disrupt the consistency across Category:Russian tsarevnas. Most of them do not follow the format "Tsarevna [Name] of Russia". I think we can simply move the first one and add a hatnote to the second one for the purpose of disambiguation. Keivan.f^Talk 21:17, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

There is no consistency there. There are at least two pages that start with ''tsarevna''. Killuminator (talk) 21:22, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

There are "only" two pages (Tsarevna Praskovya Ivanovna of Russia and Tsarevna Yevdokia Alekseyevna of Russia) that start with "Tsarevna" as opposed to 14 others that don't. If in the eyes of the community that satisfies the WP:TITLECON requirements then I would also support the move. Keivan.f^Talk 21:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

One starts with Grand Duchess and tsarevna is like a princess of a particular rank. We normally add princess as a prefix, there's no good reason to view tsarevna any differently. Killuminator (talk) 21:36, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

If we're going to worry about consistency here (which I would) I think using the title (Tsarevna X Y-evna of Russia) would be preferred as it preserves the consistency of using titles for non-monarchs or consorts. estar8806 (talk) ★ 21:41, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm fine with adding ''of Russia'' to the various tsarevnas wherever it's missing. Killuminator (talk) 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I am not really sure who took care of the formatting when these pages were being named, but I suspect that they were trying to establish consistency with the pages on Tsesarevichs of Russia (though these is no consistency there either). Two of them follow the format "[Name], Tsesarevich of Russia". Another debate about which format ("[Name], Tsesarevich/Tsarevna of Russia" or "Tsesarevich/Tsarevna [Name] of Russia") is more appropriate can take place later on to clean up this mess. Keivan.f^Talk 21:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Tsesarevich was used for the heir to the throne only, the male equivalent of tsarevna would be tsarevich which has its town category. This is another mess then as we have Nicholas Alexandrovich, Tsesarevich of Russia and Alexei Nikolaevich, Tsarevich of Russia, both eldest sons of emperors but with different titles in the article name. Someone even pointed it out on the latter's talk page in 2019, there was confusion but nothing was done ultimately. Killuminator (talk) 21:57, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

You're right. I meant to point out at the "tsarevich" category. And something has to be done about those two pages as well. Keivan.f^Talk 22:04, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I've taken steps on the first issue at hand. Killuminator (talk) 22:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

From what I understand "Tsesarevich" is the title for the heir while "Tsarevich" was the title for younger sons of tsars. Alexei's page should probably be moved, the lede already says "Tsesarevich". estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:37, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I've noticed that it has been discussed for years on end and there was a move proposal in 2015 that was rejected but participation was low. Even if we're going to use tsarevich, it ought to be used as a prefix. Killuminator (talk) 22:50, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. Natalia Alekseevna appears to be by far the most WP:COMMONNAME spelling. Compare all the -ya spellings,[1] the -ia spellings,[2] and -iia,[3] and then the most common of each.[4]  —Michael Z. 19:26, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

The different spellings can be treated as an alternate proposal, the issue at hand is the poor disambiguation. Killuminator (talk) 20:10, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

The most common spelling can be accepted now, at the same time.  —Michael Z. 01:08, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @Keivan.f and @Estar8806 to see what they make of alternate spellings. This proposal is in the backlog now and I feel like a consensus is possible. Killuminator (talk) 21:54, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.