Talk:Grand Lodge Building (Tennessee)

Corrections

The information on this page concerning this building is totally incorrect. Everything from the street address, name of the building, description of the building and what organization the building was originally built for.

Ralph Scott Curator Library Museum Grand Lodge of Tennessee, Free & Accepted Masons — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rlscott08 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

User:Rlscott08: Thank you for your note. We are always happy to update and improve content on Wikipedia, but we have to rely on third-party sources. Could you please give us more sources, for example more newspaper/journal articles or book pages we could look at? (By the way, once we have fixed this, we could also add more content about the books/portraits/documents you have in your museum...very interesting!)Zigzig20s (talk) 15:25, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

User:Doncram and User:Eagledj: I think Ralph Scott may be correct. If you look up the address on Google street view, it looks like it's possible there was another building at 117, known as the Medical Arts Building, acquired by the Masons in 1937 and later (when?) demolished (there's a vacant lot), in which case we need to de-couple the content in this article. (Both the Odd Fellows and the Masons use the term "Grand Lodge.") Are you interested in working on this please?Zigzig20s (talk) 15:25, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Quick response: Yes, usually and almost always when Wikipedia gets a post like above, the poster is correct that there is some error and their facts given are correct. Here it is not immediately clear what/how to fix. Also often the posting is "drive-by" and it can be hard to catch their attention again; they might not notice the above response by Zigzig20s and/or otherwise they might simply not respond. Perhaps they can be reached by phone or email, if contact info can be found? Here, the person seems to have an official position at an established entity, so finding contact info seems possible. Perhaps contact info should not be posted publicly here by us, but can be found and used privately by any one of us.

Some quick Google searching yields some info, and here are a few comments:

• Maybe this article should be revised to be about a Library and Museum, and not so much about a Grand Lodge.
• Google "Ralph Scott Curator Library Museum Grand Lodge of Tennessee" yields a Facebook post confirming an appointment of Ralph Scott to the position of Curator
• If they can be reached, it would be great to ask for them to contribute some new snapshots of the building, outside and inside, to be contributed by them via Commons, and/or some historic photos but that might be more complicated to request due to copyrights.
• Maybe one of his points is that the building should be called the "GRAND LODGE OF TENNESSEE LIBRARY & MUSEUM" or the "Grand Lodge Library and Museum" or the "Library and Museum of the Grand Lodge of Tennessee". These usages are at this Facebook page, which also mentions the library and museum "was dedicated at the Grand Lodge Communication in March 1991 by MWGM J. D. "Tex" Tisdale", which I am not sure is covered yet in this article. However often a Masonic library is included upstairs or downstairs in a building used more for a Grand Lodge or for other purposes, so while a Library and Museum surely exists, it is not necessarily the main purpose or the name of this building.
• About building addresses, especially for a building on a corner like this, there may have been multiple addresses used over the years. Perhaps whatever is asserted to be the one currently used, should be included in the article, while others could be dropped or just mentioned in a note (i.e. using ref name "group=note" and "reflist|group=note" i think). The currently used address appears to be 100 7th Ave. N., Nashville, TN, 37203 from clicking on "address" in Grand Lodge of Tennessee Library & Museum webpage. Oh that provides a phone number too!
• There are a few Masonic libraries covered in Wikipedia, including the Iowa Masonic Library and Museum in Iowa and the Scottish Rite Masonic Museum & Library in Massachusetts. These are included along with some other places in Category:Masonic museums in the United States. Perhaps that category should apply to this article, and perhaps Category:Masonic libraries ought to be created and applied to the several. I notice there is another library and museum in Illinois: https://ilmason.org/illinois-masonic-library-and-museum, don't know if it is notable.

--Doncram (talk) 15:50, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't think Gluseum is an RS. But yes, we need to fix the address. I wonder if we should take out the parts about the Odd Fellows (maybe move them to this talkpage) until we've uncovered the history of the former building/vacant lot at 117?.Zigzig20s (talk) 16:08, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I was about to start some major reworks on this page when I saw the recent discussion. I recently received the book The History of Freemasonry in Tennessee by Charles Snodgrass and Bobby Demott. Although approved by the Grand Lodge of Tennessee, it was published by an actual publisher and is probably as close to a reliable neutral source as possible. I think this article should change its focus to the organization itself with the building as being a subset of the article. This would bring it in line with other Grand Lodge articles such as the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts and the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania. Instead of beginning the work here, I began in my Sandbox. If that seems objectionable, another option would be to use this title for the organization and move the current building-focused article, but I don't think "Museum and Library" would be a good name though. They are both contained within one room each within the building, and are not the main focus of the building (that of an assembly hall and offices). The better name (if we decide separating the topics and moving this one) would be "Grand Lodge of Tennessee Building." It is generally referred to simply as the "Grand Lodge Building."

As for the questions with the Odd Fellows, it looks like some editor was attempting some original research with all the citations to Newspapers.com. According to The History of Freemasonry in Tennessee, the Grand Lodge previously met in a building called Freemasons' Hall, but it was reported in 1920 that the site of Freemasons' Hall was desired for part of the War Memorial Auditorium (Nashville, Tennessee) and it was believed that if the Grand Lodge did not sell it, the property would be condemned. Freemasons' Hall was therefore sold in 1921, retaining occupancy until 1922. That year the Grand Lodge began construction of the temple at the corner of Broadway and Seventh Avenue (which is the subject of this article), and the cornerstone was ceremoniously laid in 1923. It was completed in 1925. I haven't finished reading the book, but looking in the index, there is no mention of a "Medical Arts Building" and only a passing mention of the Order of Odd Fellows. I believe the first two paragraphs dealing with 117 Seventh Avenue are talking about a completely different building (that does not exist anymore) than the Grand Lodge of Tennessee building at 110 Seventh Avenue. --Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 07:12, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I have trimmed it; the information could still be retrieved from the history. The confusion came from the fact that the Masons purchased that building from the Odd Fellows in 1937, but it looks like it was later (when?) demolished. We will have to clarify the history of that building later, but for now at least we are only talking about the building on the picture. Now, I do think we need an article about the entire history of the Masons in Tennessee, including a list of all the former Grand Masters, but another article should probably be created for that. This article is about the building (perhaps we could rename and move this article though). I don't think it should be mentioned in a subsection, because there are other Masonic buildings in Tennessee (see Category:Masonic buildings in Tennessee).Zigzig20s (talk) 14:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Obviously the building can/should be mentioned in an article about the history of the Masons in Tennessee--my point is simply that a separate article should remain.Zigzig20s (talk) 15:48, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm fine having a separate building article, I just figured that once we trim out the incorrect information, it will be a stub or start-class article and may make more sense in the context of the organization's article. If we are going to move this article, I think "Grand Lodge Building (Tennessee)" would be the best. "Grand Lodge Building" is the name that commonly appears in sources, and this style would fit with the convention used in other articles such as Scottish Rite Cathedral (Indianapolis) and Masonic Temple (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania). I don't think we need to include Nashville in the name because the organization only has one building, while Scottish Rite Cathedrals and Masonic Temples are in many major cities within a single state. Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 16:33, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

What I don't understand is why there are articles about the Odd Fellows building in 1925 on Newspapers.com, but not about this building. It's a huge building, and many notable Nashvillians were Masons. There should be newspaper articles about its dedication. Did it have another name?Zigzig20s (talk) 16:58, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it looks like it was probably called "Scottish Rite Building," "Scottish Rite Temple," or "Scottish Rite Cathedral." This book uses the names interchangeably. I don't have an Newspapers.com account to search for it. According to this book, the Nashville Scottish Rite Bodies (an appendant body of freemasonry) constructed the building in 1925 and the Grand Lodge rented space from the Scottish Rite. The Nashville Scottish Rite Bodies later went through a financial crisis and could not pay interest on the Cathedral Bonds they had issued during the construction (of which, the Grand Lodge owned a fair amount). The building was foreclosed and the Grand Lodge used those bonds to buy it in foreclosure through the chancery court in 1937. Currently, the Scottish Rite rents space in the building from the Grand Lodge. With that in mind, that led me to the Nashville Scottish Rite website where I found a history page on this building: [1]. When I get some more time, I'll add this history to the article along with citations. Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 17:15, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I would recommend requesting a free account via the Wikipedia Library Card. Here is an article about the 1937 purchase by the Masons from the Scottish Rite. And you are correct, this shows that it was known as the Scottish Rite Temple in 1925.Zigzig20s (talk) 20:44, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@Zigzig20s: My Newspapers account via the Library Card is currently pending. That's the only reason I didn't add in the sources you found on the Scottish Rite sale. But please add it in when you get a chance! Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 20:57, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

This article says it was sold on May 13, not May 20...Zigzig20s (talk) 23:15, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

The Demott source says May 20th is when the court approved the sale. I can't see that newspapers.com source yet, but perhaps May 13th is when they made the deal pending the court approval? Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 00:48, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

"A decree was entered...". Yes, you must be correct.Zigzig20s (talk) 01:04, 24 July 2019 (UTC)