Talk:Grand cru

Whiskey

This term is also used in the whiskey article to describe whiskey. Wakablogger2 (talk) 23:47, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have an example? -Oreo Priest ^talk 00:13, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I took a look, that looks like it's a metaphor. -Oreo Priest ^talk 00:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind responses. I agree that that use appears metaphorical (which should be described in the article), but it seems clear that the meaning is wider than described. Here are other examples:

Olives/olive oil and food in general (link deleted because it is blocked by Wikipedia): What's Grand Cru, Anyway? \ Grand cru simply means "great growth" in French. With regards to gourmet food, it usually refers to the first crop, carefully picked at the height of its prime (not necessarily ripeness) - usually by hand in order to select the best of the best specimens. These specimens come from a common ancestor, grown under particular conditions, harvested in a specific method, and processed in a way that maintains the essence of the crop - in this case, olives (but also used for grape vineyards and cocoa).

Cigars: [[1]] Davidoff Grand Cru No.1 Box of 25 (product name)

Cognac: [[2]] XO Grand Cru (product name)

[[3]] Remy Martin Grand Cru Cognac (product name)

Whisky: [[4]] It is a different whisky; it was best described by the Sunday times as “Premier Grand Cru Classe”.

[[5]] Without doubt, this is one of the world's greatest spirits. Big, yet gentle, this complex whisky has been described as a "Grand Cru Classe" of malts. (about the same whisky, but on a different page)

[[6]] Glenugie - Scotch Malt Whisky - Region: Highlands \ WF Distillery Ranking: Grand Cru Classé

Truffles: [[7]] Medium Box Grand Cru Truffles (product name)

Cheese: [[8]] Bettine Grand Cru is an amazing Dutch gourmet cheese (product name)

While many of these are product names, it seems clear that the word has a general meaning beyond merely wines and metaphors. Wakablogger2 (talk) 19:51, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Any improvement to article that increases it encyclopedic value is always welcomed. I would encourage you to take a look at our policy on using reliable sources. The links you posted above would not fall into the "reliable source" category and such couldn't be used to improve the article. If you do find independent (i.e. not sales related or tied into a whiskey/cognanc producer's website), non-blog related reliable sources that talk about the uses of Grand Cru apart from the wine context--then by all means use them to improve the article. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 20:07, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Some of those sources are sketchy, sure. But links 1,2,3,7 and 8 establish beyond any reasonable doubt that these products exist and that's what they're called. They're not exactly the New York Times, but they do just fine. -Oreo Priest ^talk 22:38, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

The majority of those links are retail pages and none of them establish anything beyond usage as a brand name--which is a completely different concept than what this article is about. The current reliable sources in the article establishes the term as a classification which is tightly defined. A wine producer can not just willy nilly add the term "Grand cru" to their wine as part of its name. The vineyard source or the winery itself must meet the tightly defined classification guidelines. None of the links provided show any context or explanation of the usage of "Grand cru". Its just there, part of the brand name. It is like Trojan condoms. Should we mention in our articles on Troy or the Trojan War that companies today use "Trojan" in their brand name and use a retail sales link to Drugstore.com as the reliable source reference? Now if there is a reliable source talking about the marketing value of using "Grand cru" in a brand name, we would certainly have something to go. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Let's be perfectly clear; the wine section of this article is about the French wine classification system, and that should of course be its primary focus. But it's clear that the term is used outside winemaking. The whiskey sources are completely unreliable, and most of the others look like single examples, true. But for maybe the cognac (see also here) and certainly for the beer, it is more widespread. I know you take wine seriously, but your condom comparison is completely ridiculous.

I happen to know that the grand cru beers put in the article are the best or among the best beers that each brewery makes, but I'm hesitant to put that in the article because I don't have a reliable source to back it up. It happens to be that there aren't really any equivalents to the Oxford Companion to Wine for the beer snob, it just isn't considered as intellectual a subject. Even if there were, it probably wouldn't mention that certain breweries, mostly in Belgium, tend to name their best beer "Grand Cru". It's not a well-defined enough term to bother, and everyone who sees it (Belgians) understands what it means. But its use is clear, and I could pull up many more beers called grand cru if you like. I'm not saying that it should be the focus of the article, just that we should mention it is sometimes used outside of winemaking, especially with beer, to denote a fine product. -Oreo Priest ^talk 05:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The condom comparison is not that ridiculous. It gets to the point that this is a topic of marketing and should be treated accordingly. We have a product that arbitrarily chooses a particular brand name. There is no defined standard that this condom brand has to go through in order to be labeled "Trojan". It is simply marketing. The same with "Grand cru". Apart from its usage primarily in the French wine industry, there is no defined standard for any other product to label itself as "Grand cru". For any other wine or product (be it whiskey, beer or condoms) to call itself "Grand cru" is just marketing. It doesn't matter if it is the "best of best", if there is no defined standard then it is purely a marketing decision. To comment on this marketing usage is certainly not off limits for an encyclopedia article, however the reliable sources that we use should comment on how/why "Grand cru" is being used in the marketing of this product. A link to a sales retail site that just simply shows it exist isn't any more reliable or encyclopedic than a link to a drugstore website shows that an association with the historical Trojan people is used to market condoms. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 06:22, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll explain the complete disanalogy between that case and this one. You're suggesting that in a huge, extremely culturally and mythologically significant war that happened 3000 years ago, we should not mention the one contemporary brand of condoms that just happens to use the name because it sounds cool. I completely agree. Here, I'm suggesting that in an article that is primarily about a technical term used to denote fine wines, we mention that it is sometimes used for beer, but without a technical meaning. The difference is significant. -Oreo Priest ^talk 13:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

As pointed out by Agne, the primary reason why this article exists is that Grand Cru is a term used in several instances of official wine classification as set down in wine legislation. Last time I tried it, I found Hoegaarden Grand Cru to be a good beer, but to the best of my knowledge the term has no specific meaning in the context of beer. It just sounds good, like "Premium", "Gold", "Extra" or other phrases used in specific brand names intended to indicate that a specific beer is indeed something extra. So is there really anything encyclopedic about this phrase on beer labels which means that it should be mentioned here? Or perhaps it's time that someone starts a Glossary of beer terms? Tomas e (talk) 16:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The large number of occurrences of "grand cru" with beer, in product names or not, is a strong indication that the word has extended beyond the meaning of wines. To ignore this fact would be a disservice to the reader who sees "X Grand Cru Beer" and comes to Wikipedia looking for knowledge. It seems obvious that the marketers have jumped on the wine bandwagon as well as used the French meaning of "grand cru" to promote their beers. Stating that the word "grand cru" is used in connection with beer and other products and that it has no official meaning is therefore noteworthy and of service to the reader seeking information. Wakablogger2 (talk) 17:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

(undent) I think Wakablogger put it quite articulately. -Oreo Priest ^talk 00:59, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia operates on reliable sources rather than "strong indications". Compare WP:OR. How can you "use the French meaning of grand cru" for if one is regulated by wine legislation one is just a term plastered on a label. You have just produced a partial list of beer brands, which goes against "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" & "Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics", compare WP:NOT. Tomas e (talk) 12:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Again the only reason those beers are enumerated is to show that this is done with beer, and I've offered to tuck all those refs into a single footnote.<ref>See, for example Beer A, Beer B, Beer C.</ref> -Oreo Priest ^talk 15:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Then why don't you do that, and read up on WP:RS, WP:OR, WP:NOT. Tomas e (talk) 16:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Tomas e: With respect to your expression "use the French meaning of grand cru," I am confused. This is the English Wikipedia, so we should be discussing "grand cru" with respect to English. That does not mean that we cannot discuss uses in non-Anglophonic regions and uses, but that the meaning of the term "grand cru" as it is used in English contexts should be the focus. Wakablogger2 (talk) 17:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Waka, "Grand cru" is a loanword which means that the French meaning IS the English meaning. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. To me, it seems there is plenty of evidence that "grand cru" has entered the English language. Perhaps this is the crux of the disagreement. Wakablogger2 (talk) 17:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

No, the crux of the disagreement is that we have an article with a defined meaning and context as supported by reliable sources. This meaning is defined in both French and English (The Oxford Companion to Wine is a decidedly English language source). Some producers are choosing to use this term-apart from its meaning, apart from its context-for marketing purposes. The crux is that the inclusion of this purely marketing usage is inappropriate in this article unless there are some sound, reliable sources that talk about the "how" or "why" it is used in relation to its defined meaning and context. We don't have that here. All we have is evidence that it is arbitrarily used by producers to sell more product. The usage of "Grand cru" apart from wine has no more meaning then "mighty" in Mighty Putty, "awesome" in Totally Awesome Computers and "prestige" in Mumm Napa's Brut Prestige. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

My interest is primarily in helping people find information. And when they see "grand cru" used in relation to cheese, cognac, beer, chocolate and other terms, I think it is important to provide that information in Wikipedia. I know that many people disagree with my viewpoint on the importance of providing information. In any case, I have provided two references in the section below that are from books. I hope these will help bolster the case that there are reliable sources that use this term in English without reference to wine. Beyond this point, I have no further interest in discussing this topic. I hope that this article will provide as complete information as possible about the English term "grand cru" so that people will be adequately informed about its meaning and use. Wakablogger2 (talk) 17:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The key difference between mighty, awesome, prestige and grand cru is that it is completely clear to any English speaker what the first three mean or are supposed to mean, and the last one needs explanation. Also, use of grand cru is pretty much restricted to food products which are intended to be high quality, whereas the others are just blanket adjectives. -Oreo Priest ^talk 18:03, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

So if people see a term used in the marketing and advertising of a product, then that information should be in the relating Wikipedia article, right? Under that logic, we need to edit the Mighty, Prestige and Awesome articles as well as any hundreds of adjectives uses in marketing. I don't think so. This is an encyclopedia, WP:NOT a glossary of marketing terms. Once again, there are no reliable sources being provided that offer any context, any defined meaning apart from its use for marketing purposes. There is no way of even knowing if its "restricted to food products which are intended to be high quality". There is nothing keep Spam (food) from slapping "Grand cru" on its label-which I guess under the espoused logic would mean that would merit inclusion in this article. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 18:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Section break

We still have a situation where we have no reliable sources explaining any encyclopedic relevance or reason for the marketing decision of some brewers to use the term of "Grand cru" on their label. There is no meaning, no context and really no purpose outside of sales, advertising and marketing. I can't think of any other example in the encyclopedia where we include product advertisements in articles simply because "it exist" and some product uses it for marketing. Furthermore, it is becoming increasingly inappropriate in this article which has a define meaning, context and encyclopedic relevance which is supported by reliable sources. I suggest we take the marketing material and splinter it off into Grand cru (marketing) or what not. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 16:24, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that makes sense. First of all, this is not marketing material, just to set the record straight. We could take any or all of it off the page as long as the claim it supports remains; nobody's trying to promote anything. Second, the point is to mention that the term is used outside of wine (which it is), and to specifically mention that it does not have a technical meaning. It would be very odd to create an entire article about that, a mention in this article is the appropriate place for it. -Oreo Priest ^talk 16:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

But the fact is, it doesn't have a meaning outside of wine. It is just a marketing term arbitrarily applied by some brewers to whatever they feel they could sell labeled as "Grand cru". There is no set quality classification or any defined context for the term. It is just like the sparkling wines that arbitrarily label their higher end offerings as "prestige". The use of that term exist and a list of wines that use the term can be provided but it would be wholly inappropriate to try and insert that material into the prestige article because there is no defined context or meaning to the term "prestige" in wine--it is just marketing. The same with Grand cru with beer (and whiskey). Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, the same argument can be made about the word "dry." Since no government authority regulates what constitutes "dry," you can say that the concept of dry alcohol has no place in Wikipedia. I agree that "grand cru" has a special meaning with respect to wine, but it has a meaning of prestige when used in connection with other products. That meaning of prestige is not defined by a government agency, but neither are words such as hoppy or tannic. As we saw in the whiskey article, the term "grand cru" is also used metaphorically. Doing a Google search on "grand cru" -wine brings up more than 6000 hits. It seems clearly that there is a phenomenon here that needs to be explicated. Wakablogger2 (talk) 17:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that explains that meaning? That is all that is needed to solve this entire situation. There is "huge phenomenon" of companies using the term "AWESOME" and "MIGHTY" in their marketing and labeling of products. That doesn't mean those usages are encyclopedic. And BTW, "dry" is a regulated wine term. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Here are a couple:

• "Facing the intensified international competition of the 1980s and heightened fears of increasingly centralized regulation, French chocolatiers and cultural taste makers attempted to stimulate new demand for craft commodities by promoting "genuine," "grand cru," or "vintage" French chocolate. "The cultural politics of food and eating" by James L. Watson, Melissa L. Caldwell, page 145. [[9]]
• "A campaign created by Rumrill-Hoyt depicting the drama, emotion and impact expressed with black and white photography, won the top prize Grand Cru Gold Award." "Art direction" by National Association of Art Directors (U.S.), National Society of Art Directors, page 2. [[10]]

I also found an equestrian event in Australia using the term "grand cru" and a designation for students studying food that uses the term at a US school. Wakablogger2 (talk) 17:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The first link is getting some where because it is starting to explain the "how" and "Why". Agne^Cheese/^Wine 18:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The blurry line of WP:ADVERT

As a corollary, the current "Beer section" and the sources used (primarily a beer rating site like yelp or cellartracker) is not really providing anything of encyclopedic merit. It doesn't explain why these beers are listed as "Grand cru", what this designation means, how is it obtained, etc. It merely presents the fact that some brewery choose to market their beers as such as is really just a borderline WP:ADVERT for those beers. The California branch of Mumm uses the designation "prestige" to signify its higher level sparkling wines (as does a few other producers). It would be inappropriate and a clear advert to include information about this marketing in the prestige article with a link to cellartracker or something. Now if there was some reliable sources commenting on the Who/What/When/Where/Why/How in regards to this marketing, then maybe a mention of Mumm Napa Brut Prestige would merit inclusion in the prestige article--but that's a little bit of a stretch. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 06:33, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The only reason those links are in the article at all is to establish that those exist. I would happily tuck them all away in a single reference if you like. You're right that the current amount of space dedicated to beer given your concerns is too much. We could even collapse the whole section into a single sentence mentioning its use in Belgian beer. Having said that, I think it might be nice to say something like "for example, Rodenbach Grand Cru", with that one chosen because it received Michael Jackson's maximum rating of 4 stars. I'm not looking for beer to have equal billing with wine here, just a mention that the term is also used. -Oreo Priest ^talk 13:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I personally found those examples illuminating. If it is felt that the beer section has too much relative space, I think beefing up the wine section would be more appropriate. Wakablogger2 (talk) 17:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

For me, it's definitely not a matter of allocating space to wine's favour. It's a matter of holding writing on other beverages and food products to the same Wikipedia standards. The has been much thought given by WP:WINE to what is encyclopedic wine content - see for example Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics) and Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a wine guide. Much of this should have its parallel in other beverage areas. Tomas e (talk) 12:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I've been convinced that the beer section is presently too large, regardless of the size of the wine section. For the rest, see above. -Oreo Priest ^talk 15:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Situation resolved

Since it clear that the wine context and the marketing context of Grand cru are two completely different topics, I went ahead and started to splinter article on Grand cru (marketing) which can include its marketing usage in beer, chocolate, etc. Feel free to expand that article with whatever details you think are necessary. There is a DAB note at the top of this article so that any reader who may be interested in this marketing usage can easily find that article. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 18:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. Still seems like a bit of a strange solution to me, but the page you created looks pretty good. I still am not sure the term "marketing" is the most appropriate one; to me that evokes images of some sort of deliberate campaign rather than an ordinary adjective for a product. I think this solution is a workable one, though I would like to change instances of "marketing" in the DAB header and article name to something else. Ideas? -Oreo Priest ^talk 18:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

[transferred by OP from talk page] I agree with you that "marketing" is completely wrong. Not only does it not match the facts, but it limits future expansions of "grand cru," which will doubtlessly occur. How about "grand cru (other)"? Best regards. Wakablogger2 (talk) 20:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm toying with the idea of Grand cru (food and drink). Thoughts? -Oreo Priest ^talk 23:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I've moved it due to relative radio silence. If there's any issue, we can continue to discuss it here. -Oreo Priest ^talk 00:04, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization

Capitalization: The capitalization style in this article of "Grand cru" seems odd. Many examples do exist of "Grand Cru," "Grand cru" and "grand cru." As a classification or common adjective, there does not seem to be a reason to capitalize. I recommend changing all to "grand cru." Also, "Premier cru" and "Lambic" should be decapitalized unless there is a particular reason for their capitalizations.

Examples:

• [[11]] One of the most prestigious Bordeaux wine estates yesterday joined the race for a stake in China's growing wine industry, announcing that it would invest in vineyards in the Far East to produce a "Chinese grand cru".
• Formerly a way of living for olive orchard farmers and passed from generation to generation, the quest to produce one's own version of grand cru olive oil is now a quest for celebrities. (I cannot provide this link because it is blocked by Wikipedia. Wakablogger2 (talk) 19:51, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I back changing everything to grand cru. I took care of Premier cru and Lambic. -Oreo Priest ^talk 22:31, 19 July 2009 (UTC)