Talk:Gravel Switch, Livingston County, Kentucky

Phone research results

I telephoned and spoke with a long term employee at the nearby Vulcan Materials quarry and the county's Agricultural Extension Agent.

The Vulcan employee said that there's a local rock called "red gravel" which is NOT a gravel (gravel is a rock deposited by the river) but IS a material which didn't need "crushing". No one uses the "red gravel" as a commercial product in this day and age of huge limestone crushing operations. The Vulcan employee cleared up for me that the term "gravel" (in the rock biz) means a naturally occurring material from the rivers, is rounded, and would never have been used for track ballast (railroad beds). Vulcan does not sell any gravels. It sells crushed limestone products which is the current material used for road beds, railroad beds, and building foundations. Their current quarry was started after the building of the Kentucky Dam (which was late 1930s), and that fits with the 1992 document which mentions "...pre-date construction of the dam... Apparently a smaller gravel operation existed...".

I then spoke with the extension agent to find out about soil maps and local soils and rock layers. He said that the "powers that be" stopped publishing soil maps and instead put everything online. He directed me to the website Web Soil Survey, said to look up Livingston County, Kentucky, and wished me luck in deciphering it. (He prefers the old maps, himself.) Yeah, I located it on the map, got the download, and can't make heads nor tails of it. If anyone else is able to decipher it, then I will bow to the techie-gods. Here is an image I screenshot which shows the area of "Gravel Switch". I'm really curious about this "red gravel" rock layer.

— Normal Op (talk) 21:24, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this research. Looking at the older maps on TopoViewer, almost everything in the area was rearranged after the dam was built. The 1936 1:24,000 quad shows the main rail line running along what is now the riverbank, and a short siding splits into about 6 dead-end tracks labeled "Gravel Siding". Two mines are shown nearby, on either side of what is now Highway 62, which are still visible in the satellite photo. All of this seems to have been obliterated when the dam was built; the main line was routed directly through the Gravel Siding location, and the name was kept even though the siding was gone. –dlthewave ☎ 22:45, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

What a super cool tool, Dlthewave! I'm keeping that for future references. (*cough* Spaghetti J next *cough*) Yes, I see where the spur was in the 1936 maps. And after the dam was completed and the basin filled up (1955 maps), the old tracks went under water and the new tracks were sent through what was the spur (Gravel Switch). So where does that leave us with this AfD? Normal Op (talk) 23:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a tough one. Historical maps are a great resource for background information, but we should really be citing written sources if we're going to add that history to the article. I'm still not seeing enough coverage to merit a standalone article but it could potentially be merged with a nearby place such as Grand Rivers, Kentucky. –dlthewave ☎ 03:17, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Grand Rivers... population 382? The old Gravel Switch wasn't in Grand Rivers and the new railway doesn't even go through there. Not really appropriate. Livingston County, Kentucky would be a better landing place if it needed to be merged. Normal Op (talk) 05:19, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

As it is at the city line with Lake City and often associated with/considered part of Grand Rivers, that would be best redirect.Djflem (talk) 06:32, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

For what it's worth, qua background.

United States Army Corps of Engineers (May 20, 1966). "Annual Report of the Chief of Engineers on Civil Works Activities: Extract report of the Baltimore Md. District". US Army Corps of Engineers, Baltimore District – via Google Books.

United States Interstate Commerce (May 20, 1988). "Interstate Commerce Commission Reports: Reports and Decisions of the Interstate Commerce Commission of the United States". U.S. Government Printing Office – via Google Books.

Gary W. Dolzall and Jerry Mart (March 1988). "The Paducah & Louisville A heritage of coal,crushed stone,and HOscale" (PDF). Trains. Retrieved May 20, 2020.

— Djflem

Thanks, Djflem. The part you just put into the article matches what the Vulcan employee said, too. They use that embayment to load crushed rock onto barges. That IS their waterway loading point. The google maps "street view" shows a Vulcan business sign at the entrance off KY-453 road (see it here). Vulcan has their own spur directly into their quarry for loading onto rail cars. They didn't know about the railroad that crosses the mouth of the embayment, nor the "box" building on the rail bridge. One of these references you found, or something I read in the last 24 hours, said something about a pump house. I don't know if that is a refueling structure or what. I wish someone familiar with railroads would join us on this mini-project. Normal Op (talk) 22:29, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Here's another photo which may be helful (at least in research). It's on the TVA website. Here it is. I annotated a copy of the image to show the area. Yellow marks the Gravel Switch area. Orange marks the "box building" on the railroad bridge across the embayment. Normal Op (talk) 22:41, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Kentucky Geological Surveys (links in Bosnian Serbo-Croatian)

• Series 6: Geologic Reports, Kentucky Geological Survey, 1920

• numerous mentions of Gravel Switch near Tennessee River Grand Rivers (& some of local in Marion County in central KY)

Djflem (talk) 23:03, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Jessup

The station at the locale later became known as Jessup. Article re-naming per?:

Gary W. Dolzall and Jerry Mart (March 1988). "The Paducah & Louisville A heritage of coal, crushed stone, and HOscale" (PDF). Trains. Retrieved May 20, 2020.

Croft, J.A. (1965). "Kentucky Division Condensed Profile" (PDF). Illinois Central Railroad. Retrieved May 22, 2020.

United States Interstate Commerce (May 20, 1988). "Interstate Commerce Commission Reports: Reports and Decisions of the Interstate Commerce Commission of the United States". U.S. Government Printing Office – via Google Books.

Edward A. Lewis, Edward A. Lewis (1996), American Shortline Railway Guide, Kalmbach Publishing, p. 241, ISBN 9780890242902

"Illinois Cenral Gulf Railroad; Exemption under Provision of Rule 19". Federal Register Volume 44, No. 84. April 30, 1970. Retrieved May 20, 2020.

"Viewing Album: Jessup/Grand Rivers KY - Railroad Picture Archives.NET". www.rrpicturearchives.net.

"Kinder Morgan's Grand Rivers Terminal (GRT) at Jessup". Paducah & Louisville Railway.</ref>

"Decision STB Finance Docket No. 33362 PADUCAH & LOUISVILLE RAILWAY, INC.—CONTROL EXEMPTION—PADUCAH & ILLINOIS RAILROAD COMPANY" (PDF). Surface Transportation Board. July 8, 1999. Retrieved May 21, 2020.

"System Map" (PDF). Paducah & Louisville Railway.

Solomon, Brian; Yough, Patrick (2009), Coal Trains: The History of Railroading and Coal in the United States, Voyageur Press, p. 104, ISBN 9781616731373

• Jouzaitis, Carol (February 26, 1986). "ICG SELLING KENTUCKY LINE FOR $54 MILLION". Chicago Tribune.

George P. Jessup

Mr. Jessup was the project manager during construction of the Kentucky Dam, who was quoted and had 15 minute of fame with a rooster. Without a RS, difficult to ascribe, but could mention in context of dam building. (under the direction of)

Hamontree, LaDonna. "LibGuides: OH207 George P. Jessup, Jr. Oral History: Home". libguides.murraystate.edu.

""Paducah Bill" Moves to Guntersville". TVA.com.

"San Pedro News Pilot 2 June 1942 — California Digital Newspaper Collection". cdnc.ucr.edu.

Council, United States National Emergency (May 24, 1941). "Directory of Federal and State Departments and Agencies in Kentucky" – via Google Books.